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#31 Norrin_Radd

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 07:01 AM

Thanks Tyson!

Yeah, I've looked around for decent websites with midi examples, but came up pretty short handed. The best thing I found was a site with a back up track for everyone of the modes. Each done in different syles to suit the mode. it was okay, but not mind blowing. I'd love a website that has specific examples of each mode being used. Even with clips of actuals songs (like the Simpsons theme for Lydian).

Wikipedia has a list of songs, but does not actually have the songs. That's too much work. :(
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#32 Ken Oh

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 07:23 AM

Music is a theory and not a fact. This material should be approached with an open and prayerful mind, studied carefully and critically considered.
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#33 Ryan8bit

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 07:46 AM

To me, theory has always been just a method of conveying something which cannot be explained well. It's almost like a scientific backbone, or appreciating the mathematical end of things. Most people don't look at things this way. When they look at a cloud, they use imagination to say what the cloud resembles, they don't think, "That is a visible mass of condensed droplets and frozen crystals suspended in the atmosphere above the surface of our planet!" (unless they are Data or a total nerd)

For me, theory has always been like that. Like turning a picture into its thousand words, but still not fully capturing what's going on in the picture. People can appreciate the picture regardless of their technical knowledge, and some can even recreate it just the same. They may be unconsciously using some sort of art theory, but they don't take the time to overanalyze what they're doing. Or their terminology is just a lot less technical, and they aren't thinking, "COUNTERPOINTCIRCLEOFFIFTHSIvIiVIViPHRYGIANTRIADOMG!" They know what works naturally, or by trial and error.

This isn't to say some music theory couldn't supplement their innate music ability/sense (or help when having an artistic block), just that it isn't a qualifier for making good music.
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#34 tibone

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 09:04 AM

i really envy people who knows their theory.

I canīt grasp the concepts behind it, myself.
I tried to study some of the basic stuff. But i canīt graps the whole concept behind modes, per example. To me, modes are scale "formulas" with fancy names.
I can (from what i an understand) use any mode no any key, i just need to transpose, right ? But that would change the name, itīs just a mess in my mind.

I know very little about chord formations (just the basics, I, III and V , or a minor III, and stuff).
And almost nothing about scales (pentatonics or bluescales, and some majors, and minor (melodic mostly, and harmonic).

But since my ear is not very good, i need to train it, which i am trying, and i have improved greatly since i started.

But yeah, i know i sound like a confused dumb.. because, well.. thatīs i am, theory-wise.
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#35 0073735963

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 09:27 AM

i really envy people who knows their theory.

I canīt grasp the concepts behind it, myself.
I tried to study some of the basic stuff. But i canīt graps the whole concept behind modes, per example. To me, modes are scale "formulas" with fancy names.


Modes are scales and scales are modes

the scale commonly known as MAJOR is simply C to C and is known as Ionian mode
the scale commonly known as NATURAL MINOR is A to A and is Aeolian mode

Each of these things are just a series of whole/half steps, and depending on the sequence of whole/half steps you use, you get a mode/scale.

Easy way to remember the modes

Ionian- C to C as stated above (W-W-H-W) from tonic to tonic
Dorian- D to D or can be thought of as a natural minor scale with a raised sixth
Phrygian- E to E or can be thought of as natural minor with a lowered second
Lydian-F to F or can be thought of as a major scale with a raised fourth degree
Mixolydian- G to G or can be thought of as major scale with a lowered seventh
Aeolian- A to A or can be thought of natural minor scale or major scale with lowered 3rd, 6th, and 7th
Harmonic Minor- natural minor scale with a raised 7th, or leading tone
Melodic Minor- natural minor scale with raised 6th and 7th ascending and natural minor descending
Locrian- B to B or can be thought of as a natural minor scale with lowered second and fifth, this mode is void a tonic/dominant relationship due to the B-F tritone and it makes it very easy to identify by ear.

One kid in my theory class wrote out and memorized the whole and half step combinations in full for each scale. I feel its a bit excessive, but if that works for you, you could do that as well.
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#36 evilsonic

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 09:28 AM

I don't remember who it was that said it, but one of the jazz greats said the trick is to learn everything you possibly can about theory and forget it all the second you get on stage.

I'm going to be T.A.'ing the Music Theory class(es?) at school next year. The only thing I'm worried about is that my screenwriting prof is going to schedule his once-a-week, three-hour class on Monday or Wednesday in the afternoon. Because I'm only doing those two things next semester, and I REALLY need both of those for this semester.

Related note, perfect for this thread... anyone know what scales are typical in Western film scores? I'm working on a project and I want to incorporate some Morricone-inspired music. Any advice/tips/etc?
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#37 0073735963

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 09:34 AM

I don't remember who it was that said it, but one of the jazz greats said the trick is to learn everything you possibly can about theory and forget it all the second you get on stage.

I'm going to be T.A.'ing the Music Theory class(es?) at school next year. The only thing I'm worried about is that my screenwriting prof is going to schedule his once-a-week, three-hour class on Monday or Wednesday in the afternoon. Because I'm only doing those two things next semester, and I REALLY need both of those for this semester.

Related note, perfect for this thread... anyone know what scales are typical in Western film scores? I'm working on a project and I want to incorporate some Morricone-inspired music. Any advice/tips/etc?


I stumbled upon some of the Good the Bad and the Ugly music while fiddling around on piano once. Depending on what scenes you're talking about, id say its probably western folk/mexico inspired. Its kinda hard to explain on here. I recommend getting your hands on some scores and looking at the progressions or get some traditional western folk music and or traditional music from mexico.
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#38 pingosimon

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 11:29 AM

Or just figure them out by ear, then figure out the scale. One Western-ish song I remember off the top of my head is just major. I think that famous whistling theme from Good Bad & Ugly is dorian (just going off what I remember of the song). I think the Three Amigos song is major. I haven't seen many westerns, but I iimagine, just like other film scores, there are different scales and styles for different moods/scenes. I also imagine that the instrumentation is almost as important as the actual musical content.

umm Norrin, I'm not sure what you meant in your last post about changing modes? But Norrin, are you able to figre ouot all the chords in a given key? For example, if I tell you ii V I in A, you'd be able to figure out that it's
Spoiler
? If so, I think that's all the knowledge you need to be able to start understanding all the complex stuff. I agree that the best way to learn something is to know how it sounds, and I think it's even better to produce that sound yourself. 007 does need to be a bit more n00b-friendly in his explanations, though :P . Where's Gororeshi?

To anyone who hopes to achieve some good ear-training, you MUST sing. The very first step in ear training is the ability to match a given pitch with your voice. You don't need to be a lead singer or sing anything complicated, but you do need to be able to match any pitch you hear with your voice.
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#39 tibone

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 11:42 AM

To anyone who hopes to achieve some good ear-training, you MUST sing. The very first step in ear training is the ability to match a given pitch with your voice. You don't need to be a lead singer or sing anything complicated, but you do need to be able to match any pitch you hear with your voice.


Thanks for ruining my dreams of ear-training.
I canīt sing.. becaus ei canīt hear different notes in my voice.
I know i am changing notes, but i canīt actually hear the out-of-tuness in it.
blah, i canīt explain..
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#40 0073735963

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 11:49 AM

To anyone who hopes to achieve some good ear-training, you MUST sing. The very first step in ear training is the ability to match a given pitch with your voice. You don't need to be a lead singer or sing anything complicated, but you do need to be able to match any pitch you hear with your voice.


Thanks for ruining my dreams of ear-training.
I canīt sing.. becaus ei canīt hear different notes in my voice.
I know i am changing notes, but i canīt actually hear the out-of-tuness in it.
blah, i canīt explain..


Nah, you can totally do it if you want to. The best way to start is to sit at a piano and play a note, release it, then trying to sing the note. Try singing it from memory first and then check your pitch by hitting the note while you sing it. When you get good at that, try singing intervals above or below the note. Another good ear training trick is to match intervals with a song you easily recognize already. An example would be Here Comes the Bride for a 4th (this is kind of hard to explain without actually playing the song and intervals but it works great). The thing is, basically, to make yourself practice. If you make yourself do it, you'll learn.
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#41 pingosimon

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 11:51 AM

Are you sure it's impossible for you to match pitch? You'll have more success matching pitch with another male voice, so try it with a friend if you have one that's willing to help. Literally start with matching ONE pitch. When you match it, make sure it's in the correct octave (don't play a really high note and sing it an octave lower, play a mid-range note and sing it exactly as it sounds).

Alternatively, try singing a simple song that you know you can sing correctly (Mary had a little lamb etc). Pay careful attention to getting the correct notes, not just the words and general melodic outline.

I haven't been taught how to teach people who absolutely cannot match pitch. Kind of a shame, as I have a bachelor's in music education, and t hat's a pretty important part of music. Hopefully I'll learn more about it this coming year.
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#42 richv

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 01:01 PM

Theory is great but it can drive many a sane man crazy if he takes it too seriously.

It's all about finding the healthy medium between using theory and abusing it and not letting it take over your artistry.
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#43 tibone

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 01:10 PM

The thing is, iīm pretty sure i canīt match a pitch.
Be it a piano, or another male voice.
I canīt match with my voice.
I can match it playing a note in my guitar (althrough i have to go by usually 3 or 4 notes, before hitting the right note) or match the note playing another instrument.

but with my voice, itīs like i canīt control it.
and it really bothers me.. because i want to be able to at least sing somewhat in key.

But i canīt hear the out-of-tune-ness between my voice and someone elseīs voice.
so itīs almost impossible to match pitch.

a friend said that i usually sit half step below of what it should be. Sometimes more.
but i really canīt hear the difference.

itīs probably some sort of dificiency that only bothers me, because i like music.

oh, if only i had some talent...
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#44 XMark

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 01:15 PM

Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle
Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles' Father

The circle is complete.
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#45 Vegeroth

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 01:31 PM

I still suck at singing, but if I know a song by heart, I can get my voice to pitch the same as the guitars...

I always have a half tone or tone lower if there is a pause with no notes and I gotta sing back in.

hard hard hard... and I need a crapload of playthroughs before I can pull it off.
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