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#1261 Norrin_Radd

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:05 PM


In the last few days I have actually been pondering what free will is, scientifically. I started thinking about what the observer's role actually is in the universe of probability. If E = MC^2. And energy can not be destroyed or created. Only borrowed and returned, then perhaps what the brain is actually capable of doing, is borrowing, or coming in to contact with energy, and causing it to delay before it is returned. The brain is capable of stupid amounts of information transfer. Enough to make me believe that once energy is in contact with the brain (via our senses), it rattles around the endless (100 billion Neurons, and synapses) for such a long time that it creates a tiny buffer that puts energy transfer slightly out of sync. The illusion of free will.

Like information falling into a black hole. Some believe it is destroyed permanently, others believe the wave function is not destroyed, but just delayed until the black hole evaporates. Maybe the brain is causing a similar wave function delay. Taking ordinary wave functions, and temporarily giving them a "pending" status. And from our own perspective, making them exist through the buffer, instead of being a probability that they exist.

Ok, ok, so now the point of this rant. If we are suddenly able to transmit information on the level that this new wifi can, perhaps we are slowly approaching the speeds or the complexity that the brain can. Perhaps consciousness is nothing more than a limit. Once you can take in, and buffer information beyond a certain limit, perhaps that's all you need to be conscious. All you need to become an "observer".

If we make AI that is capable of becoming an observer, is it even possible to imagine what the outcome would be?

End rant.

You might be on to something. However, free will (if it exists) is something fundamentally different than mere information transfer. Even if there is essentially an informational buffer, that still wouldn't explain how it seems that there is a "self" that makes seemingly real decisions. While it might be possible that the experience of consciousness is created due to the complexity of the brain's interactions, the making (or not making) of real decisions is something entirely different.

Do you have a concept for how it appears that real decisions are made? In other words, supposing that consciousness is an illusion, how would one also explain the additional phenomenon of free will?

The way I've kind of been picturing it is that the left hand never knows what the right hand is doing. If there is a strange information buffer, then perhaps two ends never meet in time. If you factor in instinct based solely off of thermodynamics, from hundreds of billions of out of sync buffers and synapses, perhaps it amalgamates into a perpetual cycle of never knowing where something starts and where something ends.

There has to be factors to the human brain that we are unaware of. My need to scratch an itch is seemingly voluntary, but perhaps it is the result of mechanical energy creating a reason to itch. My need to try and explain this could also be caused by some bizarre portion of my brain that is creating a metaphorical itch that must be scratched.

If I think about all the physics that go on in an ocean of crashing water, I can't help but think the brain is doing so much more to cause disarray to the particles. They do not follow uniform motion in the brain, because of the buffer.

I still don't know how it amounts to free will outside of saying, there are lots of functions to the brain that are still not known. But perhaps mechanical energy, total conservation of energy, and the addition of billions of buffers are some how a catalyst for the unexplainable.
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#1262 XMark

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:08 PM

I think of our minds as computer programs with processing structures so infinitely complex, and input data being so infinitely variable, that it's just as good as free will despite being completely predetermined.
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#1263 raubhimself

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:55 PM

Norrin I am interested in reading your posts I just don't have time to read/think about/respond to them recently. Sorry for bumping with fluff when you got real meat sizzlin'.
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#1264 Norrin_Radd

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:37 PM

Norrin I am interested in reading your posts I just don't have time to read/think about/respond to them recently. Sorry for bumping with fluff when you got real meat sizzlin'.

Thanks bro! I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Also, chew on this:

If the brain continues to create metaphorical itches that need scratching, it might not even be localized to just you. If your brain comes into contact with other people, or even nature, doing random things, then the way your brain reacts (in essence, the choice you choose in reaction) could just the way your brain is configured to deal with mechanical energy and conservation of energy. With a billion neurons, I'm sure there is nuance for each person rich enough to perfectly match your exact tastes and preferences.

If you are faced with a new problem, and you remember this conversation, you might think, "What is my free will choice? I have the choice to change the outcome to whatever I want."

But, stopping to ask yourself this question is in fact, causing a metaphorical itch to scratch. If you are faced with a new problem, and you don't sit and ask yourself this question, then your instinctual nuanced brain comes up with a decision based of that itch to scratch. And it is YOUR decision, because that is mechanical energy, and conservation of energy making a decision based on your brain's configuration (and plasticity), and all the while it is buffered up to a point where it feels like you have control...

Buh...
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#1265 raubhimself

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:38 PM

In the last few days I have actually been pondering what free will is, scientifically. I started thinking about what the observer's role actually is in the universe of probability. If E = MC^2. And energy can not be destroyed or created. Only borrowed and returned, then perhaps what the brain is actually capable of doing, is borrowing, or coming in to contact with energy, and causing it to delay before it is returned. The brain is capable of stupid amounts of information transfer. Enough to make me believe that once energy is in contact with the brain (via our senses), it rattles around the endless (100 billion Neurons, and synapses) for such a long time that it creates a tiny buffer that puts energy transfer slightly out of sync. The illusion of free will.

I've written about my thoughts on free will in the religion thread before, and I'll try to sum them up here. I believe in perceived free will. We perceive problems, options, and decisions and thus we perceive free will. Whether the mechanisms behind decision making are truly free will or some design such as what you describe is not the point at this level. We can perceive and act as though we have free will which is for the most part good enough for me. The biggest issue with this idea is instinct. I swat at a fly buzzing around my face not because I consciously thought about it but because of a more primal part of my brain taking action. But is there a mechanical difference between my brain commanding me to swat at a fly and deciding what to eat for lunch? The latter problem is much more complex and probably requires more processing, but is the mechanism entirely different or just the same basic instinct employed on a more complex scale? I suppose the counter to that is the phenomenon of going against instincts. Diet and exercise are good examples of this. People who are lethargic and eat poorly are not so different than those who eat well and exercise often. Both require behavioral habits that can be difficult to break. The interesting people are those who are mostly lethargic but get spurts of inspiration and change behavioral habits on a whim. Is that free will? Based on perception, yes.

Maybe free will is simply our ability for awareness and thought. I can be aware of several options and predict the outcomes but I can only choose one action and we will never know what would happen otherwise.

I'm not quite sure how to discuss your ideas about the mechanics of brain activity, but I think we both agree that free will is not a divine gift, but just the outcome of our brains' mechanics, whatever that might be.

What gets REALLY interesting to me is applying these ideas to creative output. Right now I can apply free will and say "I'm going to work on music." I have no inspiration right now and I might just open Famitracker and dick around and give up. The creative phenomena is what happens tomorrow. Tomorrow I will have an itch to work on music and I might have some musical ideas coming to me. Lots of creative folks experience this welling up of creative juices. The more you work on creative output, the more juice you have to keep working on it. I've experienced this myself when writing songs or other things. It starts off tough but then a few days later I'm on a tare coming up with new ideas before I've finished the ones I'm working on. Part of that is definitely our brain creating a behavioral patterns but that really only applies to the action of doing the work. Where do the unlocked ideas and inspiration come from?

That's a bit of a tangent on that last bit but this is a big stream of consciousness/diarrhea of the brain type post.
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#1266 Klatrymadon

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 04:41 AM

You might find Thomas Metzinger's books Being No One and The Ego Tunnel interesting. They're philosophical works informed by neuroscience. To put it in extremely vulgar terms, his main claim is that what's going on in your brain is a system of processes that misrecognise themselves as a coherent and intact thing (i.e. the self, the person), and that the brain constantly simulates (and emulates) this 'self-model' for its own sake, your own functional purposes, etc. The system constantly mistakes itself for the trappings of the self-model, if that's not in too much academe-speak.

I don't have time to go into the implications this has for free will/agency (or even subjectivity), but I think for Metzinger free will is a phenomenal narrative (by which is meant "stories that the brain tells itself about the world/our actions", essentially) that has a specific practical role, and so on. Anyway, it's good reading, if you don't mind rather long, dense books. The idea that there's no "self" is, of course, nothing new (in fact, it's so old as to almost be a banality at this point), but there are a lot of good insights there.
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#1267 Classic-wolf

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 09:03 PM

You might find Thomas Metzinger's books Being No One and The Ego Tunnel interesting. They're philosophical works informed by neuroscience. To put it in extremely vulgar terms, his main claim is that what's going on in your brain is a system of processes that misrecognise themselves as a coherent and intact thing (i.e. the self, the person), and that the brain constantly simulates (and emulates) this 'self-model' for its own sake, your own functional purposes, etc. The system constantly mistakes itself for the trappings of the self-model, if that's not in too much academe-speak.

I don't have time to go into the implications this has for free will/agency (or even subjectivity), but I think for Metzinger free will is a phenomenal narrative (by which is meant "stories that the brain tells itself about the world/our actions", essentially) that has a specific practical role, and so on. Anyway, it's good reading, if you don't mind rather long, dense books. The idea that there's no "self" is, of course, nothing new (in fact, it's so old as to almost be a banality at this point), but there are a lot of good insights there.

And this is why my Ego descended into The Ocean to become one with my subconscious, although there are still many bugs: I feel as though my life's purpose is, in part, to work out those bugs.

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#1268 Norrin_Radd

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:50 PM

Proud to be the one to announce this:

Higgs Boson has been found (99.99997% likely to be genuine)

You'll hear all about it on the news tonight.
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#1269 Lucavi00

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:16 PM

Proud to be the one to announce this:

Higgs Boson has been found (99.99997% likely to be genuine)

You'll hear all about it on the news tonight.


I heard about this yesterday. "God" particle indeed.

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#1270 XMark

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:10 PM

I'm a little disappointed that it fits the predictions so well. I was hoping it would be something totally weird and different. I hope we never run out of mysteries.
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#1271 Guy In Rubber Suit

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 08:22 PM

I'm a little disappointed that it fits the predictions so well. I was hoping it would be something totally weird and different. I hope we never run out of mysteries.


We won't run out of mysteries for a very long time. The human race will probably have evolved to the point of not being homo sapiens any loner or died before we discover all of the mysteries. I find it rather exciting that we have been able to discover something that required the time, effort, money, and knowledge of thousands of people in order to confirm the existence of the Higgs boson. Granted, it's not the only function of the LHC (or any particle accelerator) but it was a chief reason for its construction.

Ethan Siegel has some cool information about the Higgs on his blog. What I didn't know is that this confirmation discovery basically spells the end for any competing model of physics!

http://scienceblogs....-all-the-higgs/

For a Higgs right around 125 GeV, which is where all preliminary analysis points, we expect that the Higgs will be produced at a certain rate, and that it will decay into various other particles at particular rates. What are those rates? There's an excellent analysis in this paper, that shows what the standard model rate is for various possibilities, and what the preliminary data is for each detector, thus far.

If this is, in fact, where the Higgs appears to be, and the rates observed are consistent with the standard model predictions, and there are no other "new particle" announcements that come out on the 4th, then this is an amazing victory for the standard model.

And a nightmare scenario for everything else, including supersymmetry, extra dimensions, and string theory.


Because finding the standard model Higgs at this energy means that there's no need for any of those things. A Higgs at 125 GeV and nothing else at the LHC, totally consistent with the standard model, mean that if supersymmetry exists, it needs to be at such a high energy that it no longer solves the problem it was designed to solve! Despite the absurd claims that others have made, this incredible standard model victory could finally start hammering nails into the coffin of low-energy supersymmetry, which was the prime experimental motivator for string theory in the first place.



Here's a link to him explaining how the Higgs gives mass to the universe:

http://scienceblogs....o-the-universe/

#1272 GENTLYPORKING

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 07:49 AM

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these hilary clinton-looking women must be pressing their buttholes right up against the sides of the stall and letting it rip.

icing bag style.


#1273 Sam

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 07:02 PM

Face development in the womb.



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Perhaps the same can be said of all birth control. But enough posting- have at you!

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#1274 Radioeyes

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 07:37 AM

Didn't think it was possible.

I was wrong.


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#1275 Shervz0r

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:36 AM

man that looks like so much fun!!!

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