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#361 pingosimon

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 06:06 PM

In short, Millar describes how society sees sex as a commodity, and argues that the commodity model—which enables rape, allows the concept of the "slut" to exist, and frames consent as "the absence of no", rather than "the presence of yes"—should be replaced by what he calls the performance model, where sex is seen as a collaborative effort between two equal participants, like two musicians playing a song together.


This would require women actually wanting sex as much as men do, which would require a HUGE change in a lot of aspects of most, if not all, cultures in the world, and maybe even a biological change in members of one or both of the genders.

#362 mshell

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 06:26 PM

In short, Millar describes how society sees sex as a commodity, and argues that the commodity model—which enables rape, allows the concept of the "slut" to exist, and frames consent as "the absence of no", rather than "the presence of yes"—should be replaced by what he calls the performance model, where sex is seen as a collaborative effort between two equal participants, like two musicians playing a song together.


This would require women actually wanting sex as much as men do, which would require a HUGE change in a lot of aspects of most, if not all, cultures in the world, and maybe even a biological change in members of one or both of the genders.

isn't that what everyone wants, though? at least everyone here.

I don't think it will require a biological change, I've viewed sex like this my whole life. Why d'you think it would require a biological change? I think a mindset change would be enough.
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#363 pingosimon

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 11:33 PM

I don't think it's proven either way whether men desire sex more than women because of biological, cultural, or both factors. I'm thinking both.

#364 sparky

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 11:49 PM

I'm thinking it's both, but mostly cultural.

#365 Xplo

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 11:26 AM

Millar seemingly describes sex-as-commodity and sex-as-partnership as though they were equivalent but mutually exclusive paradigms, which they certainly are not. (I say seemingly because I can't bring myself to read the recommended references without a cybernetic bile filter installed somewhere in my esophagus, so I'm going by the author's summary.) It's entirely possible for someone to want sex without also wanting a deep emotional and intellectual relationship; for that matter, it's possible (and probably common) for someone to want one person as a relationship partner and another just for fucking. This is something of a taboo in our monogamous culture.. and yet, any couple who's even joked about having lists of celebrities they'd do if they had the chance has admitted to it. Reflexively, it's possible to have one or more relationships that are just casual fucking while still wanting, and being emotionally capable of having, a deeper relationship with someone.

Furthermore, this idealistic notion of a "collaborative partnership" doesn't attempt to explain where the partners come from. I suppose it happens in some magical fantasy land where everyone has a boyfriend or girlfriend. Over in the real world, there are a lot of singles who aren't getting laid, a good portion of which are unwillingly so. Who are they supposed to collaborate with? Unfortunately, as everyone knows, you can't buy love.. but if you're interested in getting laid, well, you certainly can buy that! Not just from people who are explicitly prostitutes, but also from any woman who is willing to have sex but (metaphorically or literally) expects dinner and a movie first.

At this point it hardly seems worth mentioning that most rapists desire power and control over their victims, not free sex, so the idea that treating sex as a commodity somehow causes or encourages rape is a nonstarter. I suspect that Millar figures that he can force his ideas on people by suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with him is advocating rape; he wouldn't be the first feminist to try this, and I don't expect he'll be the last.

Talk about nonsensical feminist bullshit.

Anyway. So about the actual article. The author asserts that video games treat sex as a reward. Well, of course they do; video games treat everything as a reward! Push the right sequence of buttons, and you get to execute the enemy. (Yeah, I've been playing God of War lately.) Pick the right dialogue responses and you get an item, or an ally, or something. Solve a puzzle and you get to hear some more story. Run and jump in all the right places and you save the princess. Beat enough challenges and you get the credit scroll, the ending music, and a feeling of accomplishment. But the article singles out sex as something that should never be a reward.. because, apparently, it turns people into rapists.

Oh, and because it's not gay enough. Why grind one axe when you can grind two? In his(?) criticism of Alpha Protocol, the author complains that your character can have sex with all the women you want, but no men. Apparently, this is an affront to human decency because (a) if the developers give the player the option to make decisions about the main character, one of those decisions absolutely has to be whether the MC is gay or bisexual, and (b) any video game that doesn't have a high enough straight-girl-to-lesbian-ratio is secretly a plot to oppress women and gays.

Sure, Alex, you think that gay people need more representation. Maybe Alpha Protocol should have some token gays in it. Maybe it should also have some token blacks, some token Asians, a token native American, a token girl ninja who kicks twice as much butt as any man, just to prove that women can do anything they want without regard to physics or common sense, and a token crippled guy in a wheelchair that flies around and has lasers, just to prove that people who are "differently abled" are totally as cool as everyone else. Because Alpha Protocol isn't really a video game about a generic-brand James Bond; it's a subversive sociopolitical indoctrination tool, and we have to ensure that it teaches only the correct ideas to children.

Give me a fucking break.

The point about sex being treated shallowly is fair in and of itself, I suppose, but is that different from any other voluntary video game relationship? When I play GTA4, I have the opportunity to hang out with "friends", but there's not much point. All the scripted missions will be available (and use the same script) whether they like me or hate my guts because I'm a punk who never calls and always flakes out when they arrange to hang out with me. The story goes to exactly the same place. And it's not like they do anything to help me, except in the occasional scripted mission. Oh sure, there's the rewards. Roman's free cab rides. Jacob's gun discount. But we're just talking about rewards again, aren't we?

If anything, Alpha Protocol should be an improvement on this. From what I've seen, the relationships you build with characters actually have a part in directing the story (in that different people offer you different missions, different intel, you can have different enemies, etc). Presumably this extends to having sex with women too, in that in order to have sex with someone you first have to gain her approval, which influences the direction the game takes.. sure, it's not exactly like you're planning to marry any of those people, or going on dates to the carnival, but what do you expect? It's a spy game, not a life sim. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, and the game has a "hotness" stat that you can buy up, so that if you concentrate on it you can nail anyone by the end of the game. But if I'm right, the author should be praising the game for making relationships (of all kinds) more meaningful and realistic, not less.. and maybe he would be, if the article wasn't a naked platform for whiny liberal outrage.

#366 mshell

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 02:41 PM

stuff

I'm not arguing anything you said. But I just think that certain men who go out on dates with women just to get laid should stop thinking of consent as "absence of no" and start thinking of consent as "presence of yes." I want an enthusiastic sex partner, not one that just doesn't protest.

that was the biggest point I got from the article, the section that talked about the essay it was based on. When dealing with video games, (which are for entertainment value! not for their remarkable resemblance to real life!) it's hard to make sex and dating realistic. so whatever.
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#367 Xplo

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 07:05 PM

stuff

I'm not arguing anything you said. But I just think that certain men who go out on dates with women just to get laid should stop thinking of consent as "absence of no" and start thinking of consent as "presence of yes." I want an enthusiastic sex partner, not one that just doesn't protest.


"Consent", in the general sense, doesn't require enthusiasm, merely free-willed acceptance. I can't see any reason why we need to redefine the word in a sexual context just to say that we'd prefer enthusiastic sex partners. It seems like a tactic designed to pervert language, allowing someone to make statements that are false according to commonly-understood definitions and co-opting the vocabulary others would use to formulate counterarguments.

Having said that.. uh.. I don't know what else to say. I wasn't aware that we had an epidemic of passive women who go on dates not caring whether they have sex or not.

#368 mshell

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 10:25 PM

stuff

I'm not arguing anything you said. But I just think that certain men who go out on dates with women just to get laid should stop thinking of consent as "absence of no" and start thinking of consent as "presence of yes." I want an enthusiastic sex partner, not one that just doesn't protest.


"Consent", in the general sense, doesn't require enthusiasm, merely free-willed acceptance. I can't see any reason why we need to redefine the word in a sexual context just to say that we'd prefer enthusiastic sex partners. It seems like a tactic designed to pervert language, allowing someone to make statements that are false according to commonly-understood definitions and co-opting the vocabulary others would use to formulate counterarguments.

Having said that.. uh.. I don't know what else to say. I wasn't aware that we had an epidemic of passive women who go on dates not caring whether they have sex or not.

well a lot of them do it because it makes them feel valued or desired at least for the moment. And then afterward they regret it because they feel like they were to "easy" or they don't know if the guy is going to stick around. Or at least these are the stories I've heard.

also, are you saying that "free willed acceptance" means you didn't explicitly hear a no, so that means yes? This happened to a male acquaintance while he was drunk once and I remember hearing that he really resented it, so it's not like it just happens to women either.
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#369 Xplo

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 12:54 AM

well a lot of them do it because it makes them feel valued or desired at least for the moment. And then afterward they regret it because they feel like they were to "easy" or they don't know if the guy is going to stick around.


That seems like more of a personal problem than a cultural problem, TBH.

also, are you saying that "free willed acceptance" means you didn't explicitly hear a no, so that means yes?


Pretty much, yes.

I mean, sure, there could be some edge cases where someone is being raped and they lack the presence of mind, or are too afraid for their safety, to do anything to repel the rapist, and that's obviously not consent. But generally, the sexual act requires a certain amount of stripping and positioning and so forth, and if someone goes through all of that without objection, then I figure they're probably okay with it.

This happened to a male acquaintance while he was drunk once and I remember hearing that he really resented it, so it's not like it just happens to women either.


Note that "free will" generally assumes that you're not too drunk, stoned, or whatever to be able to make good decisions. So that covers your drunk guy. As I understand it (and I could be mistaken), if you have sex with a "consenting" drunk person and then they decide that they would rather not have had sex after all, they have grounds for a rape suit. Which I think is kind of bullshit, because I expect there's a huge difference between being sexually dominated and abused and just wishing you hadn't slept with someone, and no one should have to go to prison for years because they had sex with someone who changed their mind, but there it is.

#370 pingosimon

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 11:06 AM

Yeah, unless the drunk is literally passed out unconscious, whatever they do is still their fault.

#371 ShengLong

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 11:20 AM

you know what i dint understand.. if a girl gets drunk and a guy gets drunk and they bump uglys, the girl can claim rape. but thats not fair. because they were BOTH drunk. his decision making skills were just as fucked up as hers.

#372 mshell

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 07:23 PM

you know what i dint understand.. if a girl gets drunk and a guy gets drunk and they bump uglys, the girl can claim rape. but thats not fair. because they were BOTH drunk. his decision making skills were just as fucked up as hers.

We were discussing this. Guys can't consent while drunk either and I think they should be able to sue over it. it's just that men are (unfairly) considered the sexual predators because society tells women to guard their carnal treasures. I think this is unfair.
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#373 Paragon

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 08:13 PM

I'm not a rapist, I'm a TREASURE HUNTER!

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#374 JoeMusashi

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 08:20 PM

I'm not a rapist, I'm a TREASURE HUNTER!

Thanks for the sig.
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circumcision has WAY better aerodynamics

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and I'm in an Audi TT

I'm not a rapist, I'm a TREASURE HUNTER!


#375 Leonidus

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 02:46 PM

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Oh, philosoraptor....
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