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#661 Ranger

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 04:25 PM

you gotta be willing to compromise a ton when you work with other dudes. in the end, the best thing you can do is to experiment and try whatever, but keep your idea of the finished product in mind, however you come across it isnt as important as if you find your way there. drummer being a control freak aint a bad scene at all if its a creative experience, ask anybody ive played with. if the drummer is open to experimenting, you're allowing the drummer to have a say in the arrangement, you know? they dont get a lot to say in a song really, so you allow the drummer his space in arrangement stage, and you're gonna have a happier drummer. if nothing else, do what he's asking, try it out, then when everybody agrees its not good enough, its back to the drawing board. the time investment and feeling like wheels are spinning can be annoying, but if you get something good out of it thats due to experimenting, its that kinda experience that makes a band a band, you know?

 

Reading back through previous conversation, realized I forgot to reply to this.  I normally would be open to that, because, ya know, creative license and all.  But in the case of the previous post, he changed the part without consulting us.  He then recorded it, and expected us to redo our parts to match the recording, just so that he didn't have to re-record.  And he just did it again...except this time, he changed the drum part for an entire song, with the new beat being much more complicated than the previous one, and IMO ruining the groove.  IMO there was nothing wrong with the old beat which he had been playing since the beginning.  

 

The bigger problem for me is that the other guitar player sees no issue with it.  In fact, he likes the new parts better.  I disagree.

 

So.  Going to suggest that we take a break from recording and discuss the future of this project.  Maybe I'll get to work on my own stuff in the meantime.  I've strongly considered putting together my own band, in fact, but have no experience as a band "leader".


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#662 pingosimon

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 05:59 PM

Rofl you don't need experience.  Bands don't even need leaders.


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#663 Openium

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:41 AM

My band is going on tour through the midwest this January. Looking forward to it! Haven't been on the road 7 years -- 8 years when we actually leave. We're playing in Wichita KS this weekend for ICT Fest

 

Are you coming to/near kc? 


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no exceptions


#664 ShawnPhase

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:07 AM

 

you gotta be willing to compromise a ton when you work with other dudes. in the end, the best thing you can do is to experiment and try whatever, but keep your idea of the finished product in mind, however you come across it isnt as important as if you find your way there. drummer being a control freak aint a bad scene at all if its a creative experience, ask anybody ive played with. if the drummer is open to experimenting, you're allowing the drummer to have a say in the arrangement, you know? they dont get a lot to say in a song really, so you allow the drummer his space in arrangement stage, and you're gonna have a happier drummer. if nothing else, do what he's asking, try it out, then when everybody agrees its not good enough, its back to the drawing board. the time investment and feeling like wheels are spinning can be annoying, but if you get something good out of it thats due to experimenting, its that kinda experience that makes a band a band, you know?

 

Reading back through previous conversation, realized I forgot to reply to this.  I normally would be open to that, because, ya know, creative license and all.  But in the case of the previous post, he changed the part without consulting us.  He then recorded it, and expected us to redo our parts to match the recording, just so that he didn't have to re-record.  And he just did it again...except this time, he changed the drum part for an entire song, with the new beat being much more complicated than the previous one, and IMO ruining the groove.  IMO there was nothing wrong with the old beat which he had been playing since the beginning.  

 

The bigger problem for me is that the other guitar player sees no issue with it.  In fact, he likes the new parts better.  I disagree.

 

So.  Going to suggest that we take a break from recording and discuss the future of this project.  Maybe I'll get to work on my own stuff in the meantime.  I've strongly considered putting together my own band, in fact, but have no experience as a band "leader".

 

 

well, how far through the production cycle were you, and how good was the communication? i mean, the other thing is that if youre in a band in the meatspace, meaning you get together regularly for practice, but you guys have like a fb group chat or texting or whatever, a lot of the tone gets lost like running a guitar thru a metal zone straight into an 1/8" jack on a sb16. i feel like a lot of the time that lack of tone can cause disparity between bandmembers. i mean up until whatever point, i was always in bands like that, people get together on the weekends or whatever, not a lotta talk about stuff bandwise unless we were all there. maybe this guy got the wild hare up his ass through conversations and felt sorta stilted and then got an idea in his mind about the sound..

 

i mean, theres a lotta scenarios there. when that kinda shit happens, you guys gotta all get together and discuss his changes so he doesnt feel like the rest of you are talking amongst yourselves, like if you're all there face to face, things will go much more smoothly. and its because of the tone. part of why i am the way i am, difficult to deal with, loved but hated, or whatever people feel about me is partly because ive had to operate with regard to my output and any collaborations there in about 90% through the internet. i try and be transparent, but i also try and speak in a way which is the same as what anybody would get from me irl...i try and do all i can to diagram my tone through words, and i probably speak outta turn as a result. but if i didnt have to do the things ive done in this fashion, maybe i wouldnt have learned to speak with this transparency with others, maybe we wouldnt have the things there is to show outta tss/whatever else.

 

really in the situation you're in, you gotta get the bassist to weigh in, and the bassist's say, considering he's the one who's gotta follow this dude's more peppery drum parts can either tie things up and complicate the situation, or you'd just have to see it through because at that point it'd be 3 to 1. this right here is why i think 3 is the magic number in a band. theres never gonna be a 50/50 split in decisions that have to be made, theres less people to potentially clash heads or not see eye to eye with, but yeah, you're slightly hindered due to no harmony or melody...but hey, theres always the line 6 dl4 or a boomerang or something.


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#665 Ranger

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:29 AM

We haven't met up as a band to rehearse in months.  In fact I haven't seen either of them since July.  Due to not having a bass player, we've just been recording, either in the drummer's studio, or in my case, at home.  And it's me who's the bassist on these recordings, because I know the parts.

 

Regarding the changes, there was no communication...he did it without running it by us, then recorded it, expecting us to be OK with it.  Communication between us is pretty poor...almost exclusively through email or text message.  Which, I would be OK with, except it leads to situations like that.

 

I've suggested multiple times that we collaborate using chat, or one of those apps for jamming over the net, but he doesn't have internet in his studio.  He's running a rig on Windows XP and is too afraid of being hacked and losing his whole setup.

 

Honestly I feel like if we don't get back to finding a bass player and being a real band again, we're not going to.  I don't feel the need to finish recording 3 more songs.


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#666 ShawnPhase

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:07 AM

yeah, i mean that'll do it..if you've got no bassist, then you're straight up screwed in the equation...shitty man. i'd put the brakes on it and voice your concerns that you feel like you're not getting a fair shake due to having to record the bass parts and that the changes are fucking up your intent for the music...maybe just say it as matter of fact as possible. you'll know if the guys are trying to work with you the more succinctly you say it i'd think. maybe say before you do anything else, you wanna get someone else involved so theres another voice and more structure, you could even say its been months since you practiced.

 

when i was in entertainment system, it was kinda the same shit. jd and baines and ian all lived in annapolis still, me and matt lived here and he lived a few houses away, really the main reason i joined their band, i figured i'd be here doing nothing anyway, so why not try and play with these guys. but there were big chunks of time where we wouldnt get together as a band, 3 or 4 weeks at a time without practicing, there'd be one practice and then we'd get together a month later. it did nothing to lock in as a band. i didnt jive with that, and i couldnt say all that much about it because it was a band i was coming into. at that point, matt wasnt the greatest drummer, and i even tried going over there, making up some .nsf's, slowing em down a little bit and practicing along with him to try and tighten up a rhythm section. that whole thing with those guys in the beginning was a mess because they had 3 guitars, and they werent all that bad, im assuming the 3 of them practiced together because it certainly seemed like they had their shit straight between em, but thats not a whole band. when you've got a 5 piece, the rhythm sections gotta lock in super tight to make the guitars pop more, its a lot of layering there with vgm where stuff can just sound bad if its not tighter than tight. it was a pain in the ass trying to lock in with both jd and matt with stuff like big blue, i remember one practice i kept trying to explain the transition before the loop and how to phrase it for probably an hour or an hour and a half and they were sorta gettin pissed at me for bringing attention to that part, think i might even still have practice recordings from that somewhere.

 

ultimately, your drummer might be having a similar situation where because theres no bass, or the bass isnt set in stone the way the guitars are, or even because he doesnt have that dude to bounce his ideas off of, or even because its taking a while, because thats what he's locking in with that he's experimenting with things. myriad of circumstances that could have led to him changing it. he might have straight up taken the bass track out and jammed the new part out with just the guitar tracks, i mean drummers are weird as fuck, im the same way with xp... personally i dont even try and keep the beat anymore, i keep the harmony line in the front and i keep the melody or rhythm or keeping time on the backbeat. maybe thats by design of the music im playing..and maybe as drummers progress with what they do, and sometimes its due to being in positions like this, maybe he thinks he's doing more of a better job of what you'd want. its hard to say what makes drummers do what they do sometimes. but i'd try to call a band meeting and if you get met with resistance on even that, play it by ear, maybe even see if you can find a bassist, start a new project, and if it works out well with him there, bring him in on this one.


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#667 Ranger

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 03:40 PM

So...I expressed my concerns in a nicely worded email.  And *sigh* I have lost all motivation to continue working with the drummer.  I feel like he and I are just not going to get along going forward, and that's that.  The other guitar player is the non-confrontational type, so it would always be me vs. him.   I got the following back from him:

 

"At one point we ALL agreed to record the EP."

 

Sure, EP.  But not a full album.  We even recorded a track that we had previously decided to eliminate from our set.  With all 7 tracks recorded, it would be around 30 minutes worth of music.  Granted, that's short for a full length album, but the point being that I would not have wanted to record all tracks, and don't see the benefit.  Perfectly happy with what we have now.  

 

"There has been complete transparency in this project from the start.  You said you thought the drums were too technical on [song name]...I'm not your old drummer, and when I have tracks where I'm not having to battle listening to another drummer's parts [ones we recorded and sent him], it opens the song for my own interpretations and creativity."

 

Drastically changing a part without consulting the other band members isn't transparency.  I get a desire to not want to play another drummer's parts (current drummer didn't even write these songs).  But, dude, the drums in that particular song help make the song.  I think it's unreasonable to make such a change, record it, and not welcome criticism from other band members.  And it's especially unreasonable to say that this is how it's going to be, and you should change your part to match.

 

"You guys can play these songs in your sleep and with muscle memory, if that is true then there should be no reason why that doesn't stand true for recording these tracks and finish this album!"

 

It's unfortunately not true.  I hadn't played the bass parts for almost a year, and it took a lot of practice and punch-ins to get solid recordings.  And the guitar parts, so many of them rely on being in the groove with the other guitar player.  Recording my parts without him is no easy task.

 

Perhaps the biggest issue though...his playing on the most recent recording he sent out, which he's expecting that I record over, is just bad.  So many issues with timing.  It sounds like a one-take thing after redoing the way he played it.  Which it probably is.  But the other guitar player thinks it's just fine.  I don't get it and can't think of a nice way to say so.


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#668 the Wozz

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 04:10 PM

 

My band is going on tour through the midwest this January. Looking forward to it! Haven't been on the road 7 years -- 8 years when we actually leave. We're playing in Wichita KS this weekend for ICT Fest

 

Are you coming to/near kc? 

 

I believe so! We were in Wichita a few weekends ago, I should have hit you up. I'm a dingus. 


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#669 Beef-Clef

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 05:04 PM

So...I expressed my concerns in a nicely worded email.  And *sigh* I have lost all motivation to continue working with the drummer.  I feel like he and I are just not going to get along going forward, and that's that.  The other guitar player is the non-confrontational type, so it would always be me vs. him.   I got the following back from him:

 

"At one point we ALL agreed to record the EP."

 

Sure, EP.  But not a full album.  We even recorded a track that we had previously decided to eliminate from our set.  With all 7 tracks recorded, it would be around 30 minutes worth of music.  Granted, that's short for a full length album, but the point being that I would not have wanted to record all tracks, and don't see the benefit.  Perfectly happy with what we have now.  

 

"There has been complete transparency in this project from the start.  You said you thought the drums were too technical on [song name]...I'm not your old drummer, and when I have tracks where I'm not having to battle listening to another drummer's parts [ones we recorded and sent him], it opens the song for my own interpretations and creativity."

 

Drastically changing a part without consulting the other band members isn't transparency.  I get a desire to not want to play another drummer's parts (current drummer didn't even write these songs).  But, dude, the drums in that particular song help make the song.  I think it's unreasonable to make such a change, record it, and not welcome criticism from other band members.  And it's especially unreasonable to say that this is how it's going to be, and you should change your part to match.

 

"You guys can play these songs in your sleep and with muscle memory, if that is true then there should be no reason why that doesn't stand true for recording these tracks and finish this album!"

 

It's unfortunately not true.  I hadn't played the bass parts for almost a year, and it took a lot of practice and punch-ins to get solid recordings.  And the guitar parts, so many of them rely on being in the groove with the other guitar player.  Recording my parts without him is no easy task.

 

Perhaps the biggest issue though...his playing on the most recent recording he sent out, which he's expecting that I record over, is just bad.  So many issues with timing.  It sounds like a one-take thing after redoing the way he played it.  Which it probably is.  But the other guitar player thinks it's just fine.  I don't get it and can't think of a nice way to say so.

 

Drummers sometimes think they're better than they are, or they think they're more technically inclined than they are, and will make excuses and try to blame everyone else for their shortcomings. It doesn't matter how long he's been at this, either, since 30 years of doing something wrong only makes it harder to do it rigth. You probably should have cut ties with this dude months ago when you were already questioning his position in the band.


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#670 Katamari

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Posted Today, 06:59 PM

Playing a WASD set in DC this week as an opener for a video game themed vaudeville show.

 

Don't know what to expect.


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<tibone> 120bpm in 4/4
<tibone> PROG AS FUCK

 

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