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Donald Trump Is Your New President.


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#3646 Beef-Clef

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 03:01 PM

Well, socialism seems to hinge slightly more around the idea that people are good, where as capitalism revolves around the idea that people are greedy, opportunistic and selfish. My experience with socialism was that my family, and my friends families, and our neighbors, all went from having some kind of quality of life to having nothing, nobody could get ahead, there were very few opportunities to actually work (my dad and everyone we knew had to travel to Germany for work and be gone 4 months out of the year), and even if you did work it didn't amount to anything, and all the time we were unaware that the people in charge were bleeding the country dry and then as soon as a social conflict between two groups got too big they fled and let the country go broke and fail. And the best part was coming here and watching the US media's take on it.


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#3647 evilsonic

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 03:07 PM

So Saudi Arabia killed a journalist, and the administration seems more concerned with keeping the heat on Iran than actually taking them to task for murder. Thoughts?

Or is this not philosophical enough to post in this thread anymore?
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#3648 Beef-Clef

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 03:13 PM

Administration could have done it themselves to use as cover. Sad!


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#3649 Robby V

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 03:24 PM

Well, socialism seems to hinge slightly more around the idea that people are good, where as capitalism revolves around the idea that people are greedy, opportunistic and selfish.

Capitalism enables the greedy. Socialism assumes the worst.

Workers owning the means of production means that power is diluted amongst a larger pool of people.

Much like capitalism can take many forms, so can socialism.

Also was the country you left part of the USSR? That shit, much like China, is state capitaist.
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#3650 Sagnewshreds

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 03:42 PM

Snappleman what do you think socialism is? Is socialism “when the government does stuff” ?

 
LOL talk about a question dripping in arrogance. You do realize you're asking this of someone who was born and raised in a socialist country, right? Whose family left essentially because of the government?
 
He's talked about it enough on this board and in this thread you really should know this. But who am I kidding, nobody actually reads in this topic.

I literally asked him because I want to know what his definition of socialism is. I know where he came from. It’s almost all you both talk about.
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#3651 Robby V

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 03:51 PM

So Saudi Arabia killed a journalist, and the administration seems more concerned with keeping the heat on Iran than actually taking them to task for murder. Thoughts?
Or is this not philosophical enough to post in this thread anymore?

America and Saudi Arabia have aided each other in much worse shit like the current humanitarian crisis in Yemen. I’m not sure how this journalist would change anything.

The documentary “Bitter Lake” has some good info on US and Saudi relations.
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#3652 Sagnewshreds

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 04:44 PM

OK I am at a computer now for more than 5 minutes so I'm gonna respond to some of the antifa stuff from a few pages back.

It basically boils down to "I'm angry with how you're being white!" vs "I'm angry with how you're being white!".

...

Trump's "fascism" is no different than any other administration, he's just not making any effort to hide it behind political smokescreens.


Most antifascists aren't white. Marginalized communities are well capable of fighting to defend themselves. It's an intentional strategy that the white people in the movement are the ones to act more militantly and in the forefront for the sole purpose that they do so at much less risk due to the privilege they carry with the color of their skin. Cops, judges, and our incarceration system in general is much less violent and dangerous to white people. That's just a straight up fact. That doesn't mean that people of color don't also get down and dirty (in D.C. for UTR2, more than half of the black bloc were from the local black community...a community that is extremely fed up with how the police in that city treat them), but it means they pick their battles more carefully out of necessity.

And re: Trump's fascism. I posted videos earlier in this thread that explain this. You saying this is what made me think that you have no idea what fascism actually is. Trump is a symptom of a larger problem, but he is definitely a fascist. One of the defining characteristics of fascism is palingenetic ultranationalism, something Trump has in spades that Obama did not have. There are differences between neoliberalism and fascism. Hence why I said voting is important for damage control purposes because it's much harder to get stuff done when a literal fascist is the head of state.

Hillary is a warmonger who would pass policies to enrich powerful elites and further cripple the working poor. But she isn't a fascist. Trump is a warmonger who passes policies to enrich powerful elites and further cripple the working poor. But he also has key traits that Hillary doesn't have that make him a fascist. They're both bad, but one of them is a fascist and the other isn't.

We aren't just calling people we don't like fascists. It's a word that means an actual thing, and an ideology I've read about extensively in terms of historical/modern movements, how they tie together and gain power in the public consciousness, and how they have been defeated in the past.

What seems harder for you to grasp is that white nationalists are fighting against white people who they deem "traitors" more than they fight minorities.


This (and the rest of the post I am quoting that I cut out because this is the main point from it) is also verifiably untrue. You should go out more dude. I've been present at these rallies. I've seen this shit with my own eyes time and time again. You're right that they consider white antifascists to be race traitors, but that is far from their main focus. I've seen them march on mosques and synagogues, and I've seen them march through black neighborhoods with guns. I've seen groups like the Proud Boys physically gang up on and hospitalize personal friends of mine while NYPD stood around and did nothing, only to arrest the same people who were brutalized. I've also seen antifascist resistance successfully stop this several times in real life (one particularly effective method has been forming massive blockades in the street when they try to do such marches).

The point is that it's more important to understand what's actually happening vs what you think someone "hates" (which you have no real idea of at all). Cause and effect here, a mostly white group gave rise to a mostly white group. It's really easy to throw out rhetoric about fascism and all that, but so far I don't see how Trump is any more a fascist than Obama or Bush. I'm sure there is a way to quantify Trump's fascism against an actual scale or measuring stick, which would probably put him maybe at best about 50% there, which would be no more or less than any other president. Just because the kids learned a new word doesn't mean they can apply it to whomever they hate.

Please quote where I said we should keep ignoring anything.

My logic is that antifa is silly and so are proudboys. If Trump was a fascist he'd send in the military to subdue antifa permanently. This is just a case of people fighting against each other while the government continues to fuck us all in the ass. When you attack a group, you strengthen their base, antifa is only going to make proudboys grow bigger, proudboys are gonna make antifa grow bigger, government still chilling out. Only way for antifa to grow is to turn terrorist and start plotting against the government.

Your logic is what? "Attack those who I disagree with till they agree with me!" Does that work? What's the endgame here? Antifa attacks fascist civilians, country gets better. I'll buy that for a dollar.


(Bolded the parts in order that I am specifically referring to)

1) You're telling us we have no real idea what these people hate when (at least in my case) I've literally spent hours infiltrating their forums and communities with fake accounts and have seen and interacted with many of them in real life. This shit is fucking scary and these people are serious about achieving their goals.

2) You're wrong again here. I kind of explained a bit above about why Trump is a fascist and Obama isn't (though I would put Bush in that category as well...the GOP has been flirting with fascism for decades, whereas the Democrats have been largely focused on right wing economic policies but not rocking the boat too much in terms of demagoguery) Here's a good video explaining why Trump is a fascist. I posted it in this thread before and hyperlinked it rather than having the YouTube popup take so much space in my already way too long post.

3) See above. Nobody is doing this. You are the one throwing words around arbitrarily.

4) Trump's administration did this. It wasn't the army or the marines, but the militarized police force in D.C. is an armed wing of the state (and the National Guard and Department of Homeland Security have gotten involved before as well). This is literally what happened with the whole J20 thing. Trump is a fascist and his administration is a fascist one, but they haven't had a successful Reichstag Fire moment yet where they have been able to take full control, so the charges on the 200 or so J20 protestors were dropped because they were obviously bogus. But the MPD still sexually harassed and brutalized many of them before things got to trial.

5) "antifa" is not a cohesive organization. It's an organizational strategy and a set of tactics that different and unaffiliated autonomous groups use to oppose fascism in their communities.

6) No. The logic is to do whatever is necessary to stop fascists from organizing and recruiting, which antifascists have been doing over the last two years, successfully. The endgame is to provide direct opposition to the fascist creep, and to directly oppose these people when they organize and commit violence. To be clear here, nobody expects fascists to start agreeing with you, nor do antifascists give a fuck about what fascists think or what their opinions are. They care about fascists' capacity to achieve their terrible violent goals. They're not looking to change these people's opinions. They're looking to stop them from organizing and stop them from terrorizing marginalized communities.

And how is any of that a deterrent in any way? All that type of behavior does is empower a GROWING movement like the proudboys. I'm not saying there's a better alternative, but there's a reality to how things historically work.


Can you provide any sources on how things have "historically worked" in the way you're talking about? Because the tactics antifascists are using right now are tactics that have been tried and true over the last several decades. It's not just a bunch of random dumb asses who decided "hurr durr alt right bad me fight" one day. Most antifascist organizers have read extensively about what worked and didn't work in historical antifascist strategies, and how fascism has won in the past. I'm curious to see what you think would work vs what is currently working or not working.

Also the alt right has been continuously saying that what antifa is doing has been working to deter them. Robby pointed this out, but douchebags like Milo and Richard Spencer have basically gone into hiding directly because of the work of antifascists. Movements like "Unite the Right" have been decimated because of the consequences those involved face from antifascists (particularly the doxxing). You're just showing that you have no idea what you're talking about. If you make someone's life reeeaaally hard for being a fascist, you're reducing their capacity for fascist organizing.

Also just to address something I've been seeing in general. The vast majority of antifascist organizing is non violent. The "violence" largely tends to be when fascists gather to recruit or organize in real life and are confronted, but there is SO MUCH MORE work that goes into that before the day of. The best way to win is to get a fascist rally or event cancelled entirely. Antifascists have successfully rallied communities towards getting venues and vendors to drop these events, which has been very successful in the past (especially in New York City). A lot of antifascist work also targets the fascist recruiting pipeline, such as this chrome extension for getting white supremacist recruiting content taken off of YouTube. Another strategy that has been working very well has been doxxing known fascists and making sure that their life is way harder when they organize.

Antifascists do a lot of mutual aid work with marginalized communities, medic trainings (and street medic work during fascist rallies), self defense trainings, and a shitload of other stuff. So stop referring to "ANTIFA" (which is not an actual organization that exists) as some kind of group that focuses on senseless violence. The far-right are the ones who have actually been killing and hospitalizing people nonstop, and the people we're talking about have been reducing their capacity to do so.

To be continued because there are too many quote boxes...
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#3653 Sagnewshreds

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 05:00 PM

You know what? Just watch this freaking video. I understand if you don't want to watch an hour long video. But if you actually give a shit about being informed on what you're talking about, it's a pretty helpful resource that addresses A LOT of the bullshit surrounding this topic. It's also not so bad when you put it on 1.5x or 2x speed :P

 


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#3654 Paragon

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 06:24 PM

 

And there are tons of books and theories of economic ways that socialism could work that are just ignored, especially in the US because of the Cold War.

 

That's all socialism and communism have: theories. It's all about "could" and not about what has already been done. Maybe some people are willing to risk their livelihood, freedoms, etc. to see if it could work, but not me. It has never worked thus far, so statistically, future attempts are likely to fail disastrously too.

 

 

I'm not sure it's fair to say that socialism hasn't worked, given how much the world's biggest economic and military superpower and its allies have interfered with attempts to get it to work.  Sanctions, embargoes, propaganda, backing coups/anti-communist governments, and military invasions for example.  It would be like blowing up a bunch of bridges and then saying "See! Bridges don't work! Let's keep using the ferries instead!"


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#3655 mooniniteG

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 07:02 PM

Fuck ferries, they suck. Long ass lines.
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#3656 Sagnewshreds

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 07:21 PM

Socialism (as in literally a worker controlled economy and localized direct democracy) is currently working in Chiapas and Rojava. But those are autonomous self governed regions within the borders of other officially recognized nations. There are no currently existing socialist countries, nor have there been in anyone’s lifetime on this board.


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#3657 nEwT

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 08:15 PM

wait... are we talking the Chiapas from Mexico?
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#3658 Sagnewshreds

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 08:21 PM

The Zapatistas in the mountains of Chiapas. As in the indigenous, autonomous, self-governed region inside of Chiapas, not all of Chiapas or the actual state of Chiapas!

Edit on mobile: https://en.m.wikiped..._Municipalities
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#3659 Paragon

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 09:29 PM

Fuck ferries, they suck. Long ass lines.

 

If you like bridges so much, go to Chile. This is a ferry country!


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#3660 Robby V

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Posted 18 October 2018 - 05:06 AM

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