90306 replies to this topic

[Bonkers]

Recently playing through CV1 for footage capture makes it painfully obvious how terrible the controls truly were. I love it mind you but, terrible terrible controls.

You guys are all a bunch of huge fucking pussies for crying over Dracula X being too hard.

(sorry, I know this isn't much of an argument, but this discussion has devolved into some serious sillyness at this point)

For real, I was able to make it to the last level in one sitting, it's actually a pretty damn easy game.

Up until the last level and boss, the game is arguably one of the easiest Castlevania games. Last boss with pits can still suck a bag of dicks.

This.


One of the hardest has to be Castlevania X68k Original mode. And every subsequent playthrough of it on the same file once you've beat it gets harder and harder each time. I can't recall if other CV's do that too. I couldn't beat X68k Original mode until last year.


I think it's safe to say most pre-metroidvania games are pretty challenging. Some post too, But mostly pre.

I haven't played CoTM in a long time , but I remember that being hard for me too.

[MrBoglin]

Playing Battleship.
"You know, that's bad strategy, putting all your ships along the edges"
She wins.
"Clearly she's not a worthy adversary..."
"She's 9."
"If children in Burma can operate assault rifles, she can beat you at Battleship."

[cetera]

when you have been playing games for around 20 years, it's easy to fall into the trap of looking at early games through the modern day filter.

we are now used to thinking that because there is a man portrayed on the screen, that the controls should reflect as close as possible what you could do with your own body. this is the modern view.

but in the 80s, this was simply not an established meme. in those times, the idea of good simulation was not and needed not be the universal standard measure of quality.

the fact is that controls were still conceived of as a variable for a game's challenge back then. a good developer created the control scheme deliberately as a part of the gameplay, and not simply as an interface to interact with the game world.

you could make the main character move however you wanted. the games weren't about exploration and open world problem solving, they were about negotiating the set of physical elements dealt to you. all early 2d platformers had to work with were the basic platforming elements, and the player controls. these 2 things were painstakingly balanced to create a challenging and original game.

you might be surprisingly saddened if all nes games had the same 'perfect control from game ____" and just different level designs and music. you would only be playing a half new game each time.

if people were complaining about the controls of cv1 when it happened, konami had the power and cunning to fix it. but there was no outcry. as a dude who played it when it was new, i remember having absolutely no frustration with the controls, but instead with my own inexperience with the game. i also remember having no special preference for games with more fluid controls like mega man 2.

of course there were badly designed games still where the controls and everything else felt wrong, and those games just didn't stand the test of time.

in the 80s, the cv games absolutely did not need the music to be enjoyed. it was a different mindset playing them. they are by no means getting a free pass. they were simply designed under a different, but still valid set of rules.

[Bonkers]

CV1 was one of the first games I ever played. The controls have always been clunky, sluggish and terrible. And it WAS fixed in later games.

[Eric Dude]

CV1 was one of the first games I ever played.

Aren't you fairly young compared to some of us? You might still be judging it by more modern standards.

Norrin, I don't think I'm giving CV a free pass for the music. I also happen to love the stage, background, and enemy designs. And the sound effects! In fact, even though I can appreciate a game for its music today, I'm almost positive it would have been impossible for me to do so at that age. For example, I fucking HATED Legacy of The Wizard. So consider that myth debunked, haha!

[Rize]

It's true Castlevania control is a bit clunky... but it's a well designed sort of intentional clunkiness.

Norrin, try playing Castlevania adventure on the Gameboy for 5 minutes. Beat the first level. Then go back and play an NES Castlevania. By comparison, you will suddenly feel free and nimble!

You shouldn't have to settle for controls. I agree that the game was designed around the controls adequately. It's just not fun to play, for me.

Just because an NES game is a classic, shouldn't mean it gets a pass.

If you put a butt ton of crusty music in CV, I wonder if it would have had a following. I will definitely agree that the music is fantastic. If you mute the TV though, I would have a hard time wanting to keep playing.

The games still had quality graphics, monsters and level design. The challenge scales as you go along and gets quite hard by the end. It's still a well designed game for its era. It's not just the music.

[Moldilox]

Yea, Castlevania is legit a great game. My appreciation for it rocketed when I finally committed to conquering it a couple years ago.

[Rize]

...in the 80s ... controls were still conceived of as a variable for a game's challenge back then. a good developer created the control scheme deliberately as a part of the gameplay, and not simply as an interface to interact with the game world.

Big plus one for this little diatribe. Modern games still abide by this, but there is much less wiggle room. I have great respect for the games that buck this convention and also get it right. They usually end up being some of my favorite game experiences. Metroid Prime and Resident Evil 4 come immediately to mind. And meanwhile most gamers bitch about why dual analog and strafing weren't included. They don't know what they've got.

There is some variety in the "feel" of shooters, but the cheap ones go for the floating ghost feel... with mild turbulence. The ones that give the character weight (Gears of War) I find to be the most playable.

Castlevania had great controls. You couldn't just dodge away from everything. You had to stand your ground, whip the shit out of things with excellent timing, jump at the last second and so on. It was good shit. I can see how it's hard for some people to go back and appreciate it, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

[Ken Oh]

so we each have our own tastes

You said it! I'm just offering a little bit of discussion on the subject. Nothing beats a good discussion about the things we love, here.

I can't talk about the controls in CV with anyone else I know irl, haha.

You need to meet me irl, haha.

[Radioeyes]

I remember the controls to games like RC Pro-Am to be non-intuitive when I first played them decades ago. You drive the car from an isometric prospective, and left means rotate CCW, while right means rotate CW. Huh? I thought left means left and right means right. Why can't they do things like in Snake Rattle n' Roll?

Several other games did this, and I always had to get someone else to drive the cab in Who Framed Roger Rabbit. Fuggin Weasels.

Then the Genesis and SNES came along, and games like Super Off Road, Rock and Roll Racing, and the "Strike" Series used the same damn controls. Of course, I had to play them, because in America we were taught that Saddam needed a hellfire missile in his tabbouleh.

The PS1 continued the strike series, and thought those controls were still cool. They added them to the first couple Grand Theft Autos, before they got all 3D and Scarface crazy.


Recently, I went back and played RC Pro-Am. Now the controls are intuitive and I love it. Oh, I get it, I'm driving a RC car. Of course my perspective won't be from the car.



So yeah, it works backwards, too.

[Rize]

I remember the controls to games like RC Pro-Am to be non-intuitive when I first played them decades ago. You drive the car from an isometric prospective, and left means rotate CCW, while right means rotate CW. Huh? I thought left means left and right means right. Why can't they do things like in Snake Rattle n' Roll?

Several other games did this, and I always had to get someone else to drive the cab in Who Framed Roger Rabbit. Fuggin Weasels.

Then the Genesis and SNES came along, and games like Super Off Road, Rock and Roll Racing, and the "Strike" Series used the same damn controls. Of course, I had to play them, because in America we were taught that Saddam needed a hellfire missile in his tabbouleh.

The PS1 continued the strike series, and thought those controls were still cool. They added them to the first couple Grand Theft Autos, before they got all 3D and Scarface crazy.


Recently, I went back and played RC Pro-Am. Now the controls are intuitive and I love it. Oh, I get it, I'm driving a RC car. Of course my perspective won't be from the car.



So yeah, it works backwards, too.

Left and Right steer the car left and right from the perspective of the car. It's first person controls from a 3rd person view. I'm not sure how else it could be done!

[Shervz0r]

Left and Right steer the car left and right from the perspective of the car. It's first person controls from a 3rd person view. I'm not sure how else it could be done!

Left always moves left, right always moves right, regardless of what direction you're facing. Imagine it's like Smash TV or Zelda, but with an accelerate button

[Rize]

Left and Right steer the car left and right from the perspective of the car. It's first person controls from a 3rd person view. I'm not sure how else it could be done!

Left always moves left, right always moves right, regardless of what direction you're facing. Imagine it's like Smash TV or Zelda, but with an accelerate button

I guess it could control kind of like marble madness (on the NES). That would be a bit weird for driving a vehicle though. Marble Madness had directional control with acceleration and extra acceleration when holding B or A (one of those two; or both).

[MetalBishop]

[cetera]

mills?