[Klatrymadon]

The idea that most Americans are as thick as pig shit has always seemed more than a wee bit naïve to me. Ignoring that I am quite taken by this forum's readership, even the most vacuous yanks at least tend to be in some way ambitious, or enthusiastic about something. Tend to be. You wouldn't believe how anti-intellectual, pessimistic and downright fucking uninteresting most British people are.

(I'm boozed and listening to the Aliens soundtrack at the moment, so I'm in no frame of mind to discuss the topic at length or with any degree of coherence, but I can sure as hell stand by this much. I'm probably being a bit maudlin about England and a bit flattering about you, but I think it's safest to assume you're no bleeding different from any other nation in any sense that concerns this thread.)

[Radioeyes]

America is home to right wing neo nazis and PETA. You can easily find both Pat Robertsons and Ray Kurzweils. It invented the double quarter pounder with cheese and the exercise bike. It was the first nation to nuke pristine pacific islands but it was also the first to create a national park. It is home to the richest people in the world but also the poorest. It is better and worse, smarter and stupider, and determined and lazier than any country in the world. The only things most Americans unite behind are Lance Armstrong, Neil Armstrong, and hating foreigners that make fun of America.

Cuz believe me, America makes fun of itself far better than any of you can.

[XMark]

Radioeyes, on Aug 9 2009, 10:20 AM, said:

Cuz believe me, America makes fun of itself far better than any of you can.

I dunno, I think Canada has the US beat when it comes to making fun of ourselves.

[zyko]

quintin3265, on Aug 9 2009, 09:30 AM, said:

I simply can't understand how people can live selfishly like that. There are people dying around the world from all sorts of disease, and we could be spending our money attempting to cure those diseases or provide nutrition to starving people. I can't understand how someone can buy themselves a Lexus, regardless of how much money (s)he has. While cars are necessary, there is no benefit to society in manufacturing luxury cars.

I need to contribute something to the world. I don't have a problem with doing boring work if it means that it helps to solve a problem or to save lives, and could not work in a field where most of my time went to pushing paper, like derivatives trading or insurance claims adjustment. The way I see it, we probably spend 80-90% of our lives doing things we don't want to do - we might as well make that time be spent helping advance humanity instead of wasting it producing nothing or ripping people off.

unfortunately, i think man is inherently selfish. it isn't the most flattering thing and it'll vary depending on belief systems but it's safe to say that man has exhibited plenty of selfish behavior throughout the course of history. this is not to mention that selfishness drives competition which also drives business in america. the funky thing is that, sometimes, good things come out of less than noble intentions... even greedy business endeavors have also provided society with benefits and have helped mankind even if the bottom line is undoubtedly making a profit. i think america takes advantage of this perfectly... very hard to tell what the intentions of even our best companies are and in most cases, it doesn't matter.

i agree, dude, and it makes me sad, too. i promised myself a long time ago that i'd never go off the deep end as a consumer except with musical toys. i somehow justify it in that i am at least trying to make a positive imprint on the world as that's what most art does. but cars, clothes, shoes, "stuff?" i don't know if i could ever care about that particular incarnation of the american dream, possession. one has to wonder what that contributes to society. is it how spending drives our economy and encourages new business? is that what makes america better? at the expense of our own goodness? i don't know if that's the people or the system they're born into.

Klatrymadon, on Aug 9 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

The idea that most Americans are as thick as pig shit has always seemed more than a wee bit naïve to me. Ignoring that I am quite taken by this forum's readership, even the most vacuous yanks at least tend to be in some way ambitious, or enthusiastic about something. Tend to be. You wouldn't believe how anti-intellectual, pessimistic and downright fucking uninteresting most British people are.

(I'm boozed and listening to the Aliens soundtrack at the moment, so I'm in no frame of mind to discuss the topic at length or with any degree of coherence, but I can sure as hell stand by this much. I'm probably being a bit maudlin about England and a bit flattering about you, but I think it's safest to assume you're no bleeding different from any other nation in any sense that concerns this thread.)

klatrymadon, this is true hahaha i've known this to be one of the more peculiar oversights americans make when so critical of themselves. the non-intellectual, uninformed, ignorant bottom of the heap is equally out of touch across the globe (save africa as the entire continent has been sadly thrown for a good century behind the pace). as for the middle of the pack, i think americans may be a lot smarter than we're giving them credit for. i think americans take many of our freedoms for granted and equate our gullibility for what our prolific media hand-feeds us as some kind of stupidity when in fact we're making the choice to buy into it. we're probably more informed than societal bottomfeeders in most places in the world, too; china is a perfect example of how a contrast in societal philosophy doesn't necessarily ensure a widened sense of the world.

we tend to compare ourselves, i think, unfairly with people of other cultures who may exhibit different sensibilities. it's like the criticism isn't of the american people but of the american way. i don't know if most americans are stupid because i think maybe most americans are not. they may have bought into the system and are willing consumers but that means we're american, not idiotic. maybe the american way is idiotic? i don't know if it is... after all, there's even room for people like quintin and i who don't buy into the system but are grateful for our societal and legal rights. disagreeing with how america defines life success is one thing but its citizens are given the right and the ability to choose for themselves; something, still, that others around the world can't say for their own nations.

staying informed and educated is our responsibility. not our government's and certainly not our businesses' who are obligated only to act on making a profit in a free market. that's kinda part of the deal is it sad? absolutely. but it's also reality and i fear its incredibly deep rooted.

Radioeyes, on Aug 9 2009, 10:20 AM, said:

America is home to right wing neo nazis and PETA. You can easily find both Pat Robertsons and Ray Kurzweils. It invented the double quarter pounder with cheese and the exercise bike. It was the first nation to nuke pristine pacific islands but it was also the first to create a national park. It is home to the richest people in the world but also the poorest. It is better and worse, smarter and stupider, and determined and lazier than any country in the world. The only things most Americans unite behind are Lance Armstrong, Neil Armstrong, and hating foreigners that make fun of America.

Cuz believe me, America makes fun of itself far better than any of you can.

WIN

[mshell]

housethegrate, on Aug 8 2009, 03:30 PM, said:

Yea what's this baloney about a "good work ethic"? Can someone explain to me exactly what that means? Cause the way I see it, in this country you look for work, and then once you find it you try to do as little work as possible. Or you just don't look for work at all and you live in the loophole, cause that's real fuckin easy to do.

A good question is, what motivates people? WHY is it that people choose to not think about things, why do they choose to remain uninformed when faced with an opportunity to learn? Is it conditioning or is it natural? Nature vs nurture, naw?

I don't think it's a matter of motivation, it's a matter of tons of american people stuck in jobs that they don't like that pay by the hour. That's a recipe for laziness. Employees have no motivation but their paycheck, and they are paid by the hour, so there is no incentive to get their work done quickly. In fact, it makes more sense to work slowly and fart around at work because you're going to be there all day, right? These people work to live, to survive, to pay the rent. Good work ethic isn't really rewarded in typical office settings. I think good work ethic really manifests itself in work situations that a person has a gratifying amount of control over his destiny and is doing something he's interested in. And a good work ethic =/= hard work. Good workers work quickly and efficiently, and they find ways to make the work go faster.

People remain uninformed because they live for their paycheck and the fun it affords. If you were miserable in your job, would you spend time trying to improve the state of society? or would you be at the mall buying stuff to make your shitty life feel better?

[zyko]

mshell, on Aug 9 2009, 10:40 AM, said:

housethegrate, on Aug 8 2009, 03:30 PM, said:

Yea what's this baloney about a "good work ethic"? Can someone explain to me exactly what that means? Cause the way I see it, in this country you look for work, and then once you find it you try to do as little work as possible. Or you just don't look for work at all and you live in the loophole, cause that's real fuckin easy to do.

A good question is, what motivates people? WHY is it that people choose to not think about things, why do they choose to remain uninformed when faced with an opportunity to learn? Is it conditioning or is it natural? Nature vs nurture, naw?

I don't think it's a matter of motivation, it's a matter of tons of american people stuck in jobs that they don't like that pay by the hour. That's a recipe for laziness. Employees have no motivation but their paycheck, and they are paid by the hour, so there is no incentive to get their work done quickly. In fact, it makes more sense to work slowly and fart around at work because you're going to be there all day, right? These people work to live, to survive, to pay the rent. Good work ethic isn't really rewarded in typical office settings. I think good work ethic really manifests itself in work situations that a person has a gratifying amount of control over his destiny and is doing something he's interested in. And a good work ethic =/= hard work. Good workers work quickly and efficiently, and they find ways to make the work go faster.

People remain uninformed because they live for their paycheck and the fun it affords. If you were miserable in your job, would you spend time trying to improve the state of society? or would you be at the mall buying stuff to make your shitty life feel better?

BINGO.
but the people that are paying those other people by the hour are the ones who work less, make more and don't have to worry about that (as much)

[Paragon]

zyko, on Aug 9 2009, 01:35 PM, said:

after all, there's even room for people like quintin and i who don't buy into the system but are grateful for our societal and legal rights. disagreeing with how america defines life success is one thing but its citizens are given the right and the ability to choose for themselves; something, still, that others around the world can't say for their own nations.

i love you so much

[Klatrymadon]

Hehe, totally, Paragon. We can say what we like about American domestic and international politics, but if you're a fan of your freedoms and your privacy, it's pretty much the best country available to ya.

[Spookmeister C]

soudou, on Aug 7 2009, 03:20 PM, said:

Daemon9623, on Aug 7 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

cacomistle, on Aug 7 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

i love bill maher

I only think he's cool because he was in D.C. Cab.
This is my political thread contribution.

[Kilu]

This is my political thread contribution.


Also, the best part of the link in the first post is that there is a Miss Universe Swimsuit Poll link in the sidebar of huffingtonpost, which I wouldn't have seen had I not visited the page.

[Skiptastic]

Eric Dude, on Aug 8 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

ummm, sorry. technically, by defintion... yeah, that's still unemployed. i'm not saying it's unimportant to raise your kid, but unemployed is definitely what it is.

Depends on your definition. According the US Labor statistics, you are unemployed if you do not have a job and are actively seeking employment. Stay at home moms and dads do not inflate our unemployment numbers. So by that definition, not having employment does not mean you are unemployed.

[quintin3265]

zyko, on Aug 9 2009, 01:35 PM, said:

unfortunately, i think man is inherently selfish. it isn't the most flattering thing and it'll vary depending on belief systems but it's safe to say that man has exhibited plenty of selfish behavior throughout the course of history. this is not to mention that selfishness drives competition which also drives business in america. the funky thing is that, sometimes, good things come out of less than noble intentions... even greedy business endeavors have also provided society with benefits and have helped mankind even if the bottom line is undoubtedly making a profit. i think america takes advantage of this perfectly... very hard to tell what the intentions of even our best companies are and in most cases, it doesn't matter.

i agree, dude, and it makes me sad, too. i promised myself a long time ago that i'd never go off the deep end as a consumer except with musical toys. i somehow justify it in that i am at least trying to make a positive imprint on the world as that's what most art does. but cars, clothes, shoes, "stuff?" i don't know if i could ever care about that particular incarnation of the american dream, possession. one has to wonder what that contributes to society. is it how spending drives our economy and encourages new business? is that what makes america better? at the expense of our own goodness? i don't know if that's the people or the system they're born into.

Everything in this country is about money - work hard, make as much money as you can, and spend it all as soon as possible. Do whatever it takes to move up in the workplace, because it's acceptable to play "games" and "politics." Buy a big house and a fancy car and use it to attract girls, some of whom are happy to go along because they only want a husband who's rich. And this recent healthcare debate is all about money, make no mistake about it. The people showing up at the town hall meetings aren't there for "the preservation of liberty and the Constitution." They're there because "it's all about me" and they don't give a damn that other people die because they're satisfied with their healthcare.

But what makes me really mad is that people have the gall to criticize me for not following this "creed of greed." I am extremely fortunate to be paid what I consider an unnecessary amount of money, and I don't have anything I can spend it on. What is money good for, anyway? After one has decent shelter, a working car, food on the table, and good health, how will money contribute in any way to my happiness? Would you really be all that much happier if you owned a boat, or a plane? So I put the half of the money I don't need in the bank, and everyone around criticizes me for being "cheap" because I buy the store brand products and avoid designer clothes and so on. Never mind that the lowest-quality clothes today are 100 times better than the highest quality clothes 30 years ago or at any time in the history of civilization. Today's cheapest food is a thousand times healthier than the things people couldn't dream of in the 19th century. But there's something wrong with me because I drive an old Civic that runs fine. And how ethical is it for me to buy expensive stuff when there are people on this forum who are unemployed?

And of course, if somebody runs up $20,000 in credit card bills for non-medical reasons, you just go bankrupt and emerge clean 7 yrs later. Certainly, you shouldn't save any money just in case an unexpected expense comes up. You just let the credit card companies inflate the economy to cover their losses on people who default.

OK, enough. This post is already too long.

[raubhimself]

quintin3265, on Aug 14 2009, 11:59 AM, said:

Everything in this country is about money - work hard, make as much money as you can, and spend it all as soon as possible. Do whatever it takes to move up in the workplace, because it's acceptable to play "games" and "politics." Buy a big house and a fancy car and use it to attract girls, some of whom are happy to go along because they only want a husband who's rich. And this recent healthcare debate is all about money, make no mistake about it. The people showing up at the town hall meetings aren't there for "the preservation of liberty and the Constitution." They're there because "it's all about me" and they don't give a damn that other people die because they're satisfied with their healthcare.

You're pretty much right here with you assessment of how things are, but is it really "bad"? I mean, what would happen if we were all cave dwelling Neanderthals?

You have meat. Me not have meat. Me bash skull. Me have meat now.

Survival of the fittest and all that. Sure it would be nice if people could control themselves a little better. It would be nice if people were a little more considerate and compassionate. But that's not really in our human nature. I understand and share a lot of your complaints about society, but I at least recognize that the way I think isn't necessarily right or natural. If we were living in a Neanderthal world, you and I would be getting stepped on a lot.

quintin3265, on Aug 14 2009, 11:59 AM, said:

But what makes me really mad is that people have the gall to criticize me for not following this "creed of greed." I am extremely fortunate to be paid what I consider an unnecessary amount of money, and I don't have anything I can spend it on. What is money good for, anyway? After one has decent sheler, a working car, food on the table, and good health, how will money contribute in any way to my happiness? Would you really be all that much happier if you owned a boat, or a plane? And how ethical is it for me to buy expensive stuff when there are people on this forum who are unemployed?

Kind of the same thing here. I actually really feel you on this stuff. I get paid decent, I don't really need it, and I feel I don't really deserve it sometimes. But again you are kind of making assumptions that what people are doing is bad. Maybe some rich guy didn't buy a boat because the boat makes him happy; maybe he bought a boat because he loves the water, the sea, the salty breeze. I can't criticize anyone for that. I spend money on guitar stuff not because I love the guitars (which I do) but because I love making noise and music. Money might not create happiness, and material objects might not create happiness, but they certainly are conduits for genuine moments of happiness. Just because someone has money doesn't mean they are a prick that can't appreciate life.

[Sam]

Radioeyes, on Aug 9 2009, 12:20 PM, said:

The only things most Americans unite behind are Lance Armstrong

I can't stand Lance Armsrong. Ugh.

Also, I find it rather interesting that Bill Maher decided to quote "smart guy" and Catholic apologist G. K. Chesterton at the end of that article. Hm.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

[mshell]

quintin3265, on Aug 14 2009, 08:59 AM, said:

But what makes me really mad is that people have the gall to criticize me for not following this "creed of greed." I am extremely fortunate to be paid what I consider an unnecessary amount of money, and I don't have anything I can spend it on. What is money good for, anyway? After one has decent shelter, a working car, food on the table, and good health, how will money contribute in any way to my happiness? Would you really be all that much happier if you owned a boat, or a plane? So I put the half of the money I don't need in the bank, and everyone around criticizes me for being "cheap" because I buy the store brand products and avoid designer clothes and so on. Never mind that the lowest-quality clothes today are 100 times better than the highest quality clothes 30 years ago or at any time in the history of civilization. Today's cheapest food is a thousand times healthier than the things people couldn't dream of in the 19th century. But there's something wrong with me because I drive an old Civic that runs fine. And how ethical is it for me to buy expensive stuff when there are people on this forum who are unemployed?

quintin, there's nothing wrong with what you are doing. People just criticize you because they think that money is supposed to be for fun and you should spend it as soon as you make it. But if you're putting it in the bank and buying store brands you're doing the best thing for your future--you're creating freedom so that if you ever don't like your job, you can leave it. I have a problem with the people accusing you of greediness. Setting yourself up for financial stability isn't greed. Having a high-paying job isn't greed. There's no reason you should spend money on stuff just to spend it.

But are you enjoying life? maybe they're just prodding around at some feeling they sense in you. . . I don't know anything about you but life is for enjoying and maybe you're not enjoying it enough. Are your hobbies fulfilling? Do you like your job? I don't know jussayin'.

Anyway, I think anyone that calls you greedy has a stick up their ass. There's nothing wrong with you. you're being financially responsible.