142 replies to this topic

[Radioeyes]

So I tried to set my feelings aside and do something objective. I went on Final Fantasy's wikipedia and looked up the Aggregate Review Scores from Gamerankings and Metacritic. The latter is made up of a MUCH bigger and broader poll than we have here, and the former sources its averages on a collection of further sources. For each title, I averaged those rankings across all platforms and releases (so, for example, FF6advance is averaged with FF3US).

Here's what I find:

Installment/ Average Score (Across all releases, via Gamerankings and Metacritic)
Final Fantasy IX / 93.66
Final Fantasy VI / 92.11
Final Fantasy X / 91.92
Final Fantasy XII / 91.32
Final Fantasy VII / 90.36666667
Final Fantasy VIII / 86.22333333
Final Fantasy IV / 85.544
Final Fantasy XIII / 83.0875
Final Fantasy V / 82.725
Final Fantasy XI / 78.725
Final Fantasy III / 77.37
Final Fantasy / 67.465
Final Fantasy II / 63.92
Final Fantasy XIV / 49.165

Nowhere near what I had personally thought them ranked.

Undoubtedly, I've changed no minds here. It's more likely that, instead of acknowledging our biases, we'll just attack Gamerankings and Metacritic for being biased against something we grew up with. It's something to think about, though, when you're trying to put yourself into someone else's shoes.

[Sam]

It's more likely that, instead of acknowledging our biases, we'll just attack Gamerankings and Metacritic for being biased against something we grew up with.

Not to play right into your hands, here, but let me point out some issues with the potential accuracy of these numbers. First, as you point out, it averages multiple releases of the same game. This means that FF IV and VI are really competing with themselves (especially IV). It doesn't necessarily mean that IV is a bad game, but perhaps only that subsequent ports did not do the original game justice. So, even if the SNES release of IV was 100% great, if the sloppy GBA port was rated at only 70% for not living up, that averages out to 85%.

Also, I imagine that many of the new games (IX, X, XII) were riding the wave of FF-mania when they were released, with plenty of people saying that they were ten-out-of-ten fantastic games. Whereas FF I clearly could not have had such a reputation boost. Combine that with an exponential growth of reviews and reviewers since the NES/SNES days, and later games will be able to endure a poor review without the overall score diminishing too much. That is, one bad review out of 20 is much more significant to an average than one bad review out of 2,000.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

[Eric Dude]

Sam beat me to the punch on what I was going to point out, but to be honest, I don't have a problem with FFIV getting a "B" grade. I've lowered my own score of the game over the years, not because I love it any less, but because objectively I can see that it hasn't aged that well.

I'd still rank it over FFVIII & FFVII, though. I mean c'mon! I'd rather play a shorter game that hasn't aged very well.

[Radioeyes]

It's more likely that, instead of acknowledging our biases, we'll just attack Gamerankings and Metacritic for being biased against something we grew up with.

Not to play right into your hands, here, but let me point out some issues with the potential accuracy of these numbers. First, as you point out, it averages multiple releases of the same game. This means that FF IV and VI are really competing with themselves (especially IV). It doesn't necessarily mean that IV is a bad game, but perhaps only that subsequent ports did not do the original game justice. So, even if the SNES release of IV was 100% great, if the sloppy GBA port was rated at only 70% for not living up, that averages out to 85%.

I noticed that, too and thought hard on it. In the end, I decided to average over ALL releases, because
1) averaging a recent and old release may estimate how a game ages
2) doing it this way means I can objectively compare international releases with games that were originally released only in Japan
and
3) by the same logic as "a new release not doing an old release justice," newer releases (or in the case of FFIII, a remake) can also improve on the original games by updating graphics, adding content and fixing bugs. III and V got helped out a ton. IV got hurt. Sorry.

If you don't buy that, here are the same rankings based SOLELY on the ratings for the original releases:

Final Fantasy VI / 93.68
Final Fantasy IX / 93.66
Final Fantasy VII / 92.05
Final Fantasy X / 91.92
Final Fantasy XII / 91.32
Final Fantasy VIII / 89.585
Final Fantasy IV / 89.39
Final Fantasy XIII / 83.0875
Final Fantasy XIV / 49.165

Installments I, II, III and V did not have Gameranking and Metacritic data for the original releases (see below for comments on that), and XI had wildly different results over different platforms.

What you SHOULD read from that is, with the exception of FFXIII and FFXIV, they're all on par. There's a little gap between IV and VIII and the rest of the pack, but they're all good.

Also, I imagine that many of the new games (IX, X, XII) were riding the wave of FF-mania when they were released, with plenty of people saying that they were ten-out-of-ten fantastic games. Whereas FF I clearly could not have had such a reputation boost. Combine that with an exponential growth of reviews and reviewers since the NES/SNES days, and later games will be able to endure a poor review without the overall score diminishing too much. That is, one bad review out of 20 is much more significant to an average than one bad review out of 2,000.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

Two things here:

1. FFI's rating was actually, with this polling, just averaged over the PSP release. Similarly, FFIII was just the NDS release, as an international NES version wasn't ever done (legally). Yes, it's a flaw in those averages I drew up, but because of it, neither shouldn't suffer from the effect you just described.

2. I'm arguing the high rankings due to a FF-mania is exactly what you get when nostalgia is taken out of the equation. A fan of the later games might just argue the opposite of what you just stated. In a way, you would both be right.

Interpret that however you will. Once again, I don't expect anyone here to change their minds, but just be aware of the nostalgia bias.

[Leonidus]

Good data, Radioeyes.

They need to develop Final Fantasy: Ninja, where you play through the stories of every FF game except every playable character is Shadow from FF6.

[ironyengine]

Meanwhile, I think I've gotten to the point in the game that reminds me why I hate RPGs: I cannot find a single dungeon/world/whatever the fuck you want to call areas in this game that I can get anywhere in, I'm down to four party members and they're all fucking terrible. I tried to beat Asura, even with Rosa casting wall/reflect every few turns that bitch is fucking impossible. So I'm putting this game down until I get back from vacation.

Fuck *.

[Nario]

According to that list, I think FF8 is rated too high up, and FF1 is too low. Otherwise, I'm not complaining--not that I agree with the order, but it's close so why bother?

[Snowdog]

So, I know FFIV pretty well, but two things I've always wondered are as follows:

-What's up with using the Staff as an item? It looks like it's casting Heal, but it's not casting Heal.

-What are those WaterBug and WaterBug-like things trying to do when they cast "Remedy"?

[ironyengine]

yeeezh,. I finally found a wired PSX controller and resumed FFIV, and it took me about 10 minutes to even remember where I was last and where I needed to go. THIS is the reason I never got into RPGs, long breaks ruin you.

Anyway now I am in this moon cave and rapidly running out of items. I dunno if I need to grind a ton more, or if I should have better gear, or what, but man getting out of this cave is gon' kill me!

[Sam]

yeeezh,. I finally found a wired PSX controller and resumed FFIV, and it took me about 10 minutes to even remember where I was last and where I needed to go. THIS is the reason I never got into RPGs, long breaks ruin you.

Anyway now I am in this moon cave and rapidly running out of items. I dunno if I need to grind a ton more, or if I should have better gear, or what, but man getting out of this cave is gon' kill me!

Might I suggest the Exit spell?

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

[Shervz0r]

Ivory, the first time you go there the enemies are supposed to be tough bahstids....very soon thereafter you'll get an old man who collapses into a mess of hair and baldness but he can cast a ton of powerful magic so you can use him to level up

[ironyengine]

Anyway now I am in this moon cave and rapidly running out of items. I dunno if I need to grind a ton more, or if I should have better gear, or what, but man getting out of this cave is gon' kill me!

Might I suggest the Exit spell?

Well yeah, I had to use that once or twice. I went in once, got an awesome sword, ran around until I was clearly over my head, then exited, went back to the overworld, bought up a bunch of ethers and arrows and such, then went back down and started over, descended until I got in over my head again, exited, re-upped stats on the mirrors, went through a third time... then finally got to the save point and used a cabin, saved my state and went to bed. I can't stop thinking about this cave now. I better be near the end of this game, because %$#^!%^#@!

[Shervz0r]

Anyway now I am in this moon cave and rapidly running out of items. I dunno if I need to grind a ton more, or if I should have better gear, or what, but man getting out of this cave is gon' kill me!

Might I suggest the Exit spell?

Well yeah, I had to use that once or twice. I went in once, got an awesome sword, ran around until I was clearly over my head, then exited, went back to the overworld, bought up a bunch of ethers and arrows and such, then went back down and started over, descended until I got in over my head again, exited, re-upped stats on the mirrors, went through a third time... then finally got to the save point and used a cabin, saved my state and went to bed. I can't stop thinking about this cave now. I better be near the end of this game, because %$#^!%^#@!

oh...you're at the end-game then! Have you gotten excalibur and bahamut yet>

[Spookmeister C]

Let us know when you guys start XII. That game excites me like IV used to.

[ironyengine]

Anyway now I am in this moon cave and rapidly running out of items. I dunno if I need to grind a ton more, or if I should have better gear, or what, but man getting out of this cave is gon' kill me!

Might I suggest the Exit spell?

Well yeah, I had to use that once or twice. I went in once, got an awesome sword, ran around until I was clearly over my head, then exited, went back to the overworld, bought up a bunch of ethers and arrows and such, then went back down and started over, descended until I got in over my head again, exited, re-upped stats on the mirrors, went through a third time... then finally got to the save point and used a cabin, saved my state and went to bed. I can't stop thinking about this cave now. I better be near the end of this game, because %$#^!%^#@!

oh...you're at the end-game then! Have you gotten excalibur and bahamut yet>

both yes.

and since this is endgame, I'm gonna run through the cave mayyyyyyyyyyyybe one more time before proceeding. thx Sherv~!!~