179 replies to this topic

[Ashane]

I think we could all learn a valuable lesson from Roadhouse.

[TV's Frink]

[bucky]

The gay people I can't stand are the ones who seem to do it essentially for attention. I think it's an insult to the real homosexuals when some weirdo decides there's nothing interesting about himself and he gets no respect from men or women, but he could have respect from some men and respect from a lot of women by becoming a flaming homo. If the only thing special about you is your sexuality, you have serious problems. And the homos who are just regular people that you never even knew were gay until their guy/girlfriend come to pick them up from work one day, those are the real homosexuals, and I give them a lot of credit for being real about it. Fuck posers, gay or straight.

I'm think I'm down with your overall message, but I do want to address one thing here. If someone can validly be described as an 'attention whore', or whatever, of course that's a very unlikable quality. But I do take issue with your portrayal of someone 'becoming a flaming homo'. There are gay people who are simply very 'effeminate' by nature- it's not an act nor a show. If anything, lots of people have to act to hide it. People are who they are, and it's a shame that a portion of people on this planet have to live in fear being ostracized for that.

Take the average (but overtly) masculine person, for example. Is that person masculine because of an act they're putting on? Is it a conscious effort to be that way? While there may be an element of nurture or societal-expectations, etc, that influence 'macho-esque' behavior, when it comes down to things like tone of voice and what not, most people are just acting naturally. The same is true for most people you are calling "flaming homos". The lisp isn't an act, nor is their overt behavior that makes them obviously gay to you. Is it possible it's not always as a big of a cry for attention as you make it out to be? That it just simply stands out and it annoys you?

edit: I have to ask because I don't know how many times I've heard people say nasty things about other people simply because of the way they talk or "act". It seems like the jerks always complain about it as if it's something the person is going out of their way to do. I can guarantee that is not the case 9.9+ times out of 10.

I think it'd be an incredibly unfair burden to tell someone that you're okay with people being gay, but not if they act in a way that makes it obvious to you. Those types of sentiments could be really negative to someone struggling with their sexuality, and make them want to stay in the closet. Because you're not truly being supportive or at least understanding of who they are.

For the second part, I'm glad you'd probably not think I'm a poser... but the reality is that there's no such thing as a "real homosexual". Well, there is, but it's defined by someone being attracted to the same gender. That's it. Whether or not you can 'see' the person's sexuality right away has no bearing on how validly gay that person is or isn't.

I should also add that I didn't read the entire thread, just dropped in right here.

AMA gay dude talk. goshizz!

Edited by bucky, 24 April 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[weener]

No reason to get all personal in here. I still think the statement about potential rapists is outrageous. If it's really about protecting one's self, why not rephrase it to that effect? Encouraging women to be cautious and capable in dangerous situations sounds reasonable and empowering instead of viewing a whole gender as criminals. I don't need to prove my innocence to all 3.5 billion women.

Let me say it again, because it seems like a lot of people are missing the point: It's not about you and what you are and aren't capable of.

It's about how women are supposed to treat ALL men because of what A FEW men are capable of.

Is it right? No. Is it necessary? No. But until women who are assaulted aren't blamed for not being careful enough, most of them are going to be more careful than is strictly necessary.

[ShawnPhase]

read this you dipshits

On a trip in Jerusalem, Rodriguez-Lopez purchased an archaic ouija-type talking board at a curio shop as a gift for Bixler-Zavala. They would return to their tour bus after shows to play with it during their 2006 tour with the Red Hot Chili Peppers, as it quickly became the band's post-show ritual. Dubbed "The Soothsayer", the board revealed stories, gave names and made demands, as the band was contacted by three different people who appeared in the form of one, who was then referred to as "Goliath". The more the band interacted with "The Soothsayer", otherworldly coincidences began plaguing the band's experience writing and recording The Bedlam in Goliath: Blake Fleming—their current drummer at the time — quit mid-tour and left the band with financial troubles; Bixler-Zavala wound up needing surgery performed on his foot due to the shoes he had been wearing, forcing him to relearn how to walk post-surgery; audio tracks sporadically and literally disappeared from the studio's harddrives; Rodriguez-Lopez's home studio flooded and was subject to multiple power outages; and the album's original engineer went through a nervous breakdown, leaving behind all previous work with no notes as to where anything was. The engineer who quit stated to Rodriguez-Lopez: "I'm not going to help you make this record. You're trying to do something very bad with this record, you're trying to make me crazy and you're trying to make people crazy."

Rodriguez-Lopez was on the brink of starting the recording from scratch, but eventually kept on after recruiting Robert Carranza as a replacement engineer, along with assistance from Lars Stalfors and Isaiah Abolin. Midway through the recording sessions, Rodriguez-Lopez broke "The Soothsayer" in half and buried it in an undisclosed location as an attempt to undo the curse and halt the unforeseen tragedies. Rodriguez-Lopez swore never to give away the location of the burial, and also asked the band not to speak of it again during the remainder of the album's production.

that is not some chill shit!!!!! this thread is not some chill shit!

[bucky]

^This is something I strongly disagree with Louis on. I think otherwise super-intelligent people like himself want that word to be neutral because it is such an ingrained, taken-for-granted part of their vocabulary.

Bingo.

[mooniniteG]

Let me say it again, because it seems like a lot of people are missing the point: It's not about you and what you are and aren't capable of.

It's about how women are supposed to treat ALL men because of what A FEW men are capable of.

And maybe you're missing the point I'm trying to make too. You can encourage women to be cautious and well prepared for assaults, sexual or otherwise, without using a pretty extreme sequence of words. I don't think the phrase you're using is saying what you really want it to say. It's a shock statement that appeals to woman's emotions at the same time it denigrates the opposite gender.

If the goal is to bring people into the moment and make them think a little deeper, maybe an alternative phrase could be both more factually accurate and less sexist:

- "You are more likely to be raped by a friend or acquaintance than by a stranger"

- "26% of rapes are committed by current or former sexual partners"

- "One in six women have been the victims of rape or attempted rape"

Is it right? No. Is it necessary? No. But until women who are assaulted aren't blamed for not being careful enough, most of them are going to be more careful than is strictly necessary.

Then why not call it like it is and just say that women should never be blamed for being victims of sexual assault? And let's be be completely fair here, not all women are blamed for being victims. When I was a juror on a serial rape trial, I distinctly remember every instance where the defense attorney tried to place blame on any of the victims due to their behavior (e.g. consumption of alcohol) as universally backfiring once deliberation started. The idiot even made a comment about how one of the victims was wearing an outfit that was a bit too "scandalous" when she testified for us to take her claims seriously. An equal if not larger number of men made a point of commenting on how that was totally uncalled for on the defense attorney's part.

Sexual assault in all forms is pretty fucking disgusting and at least we can agree on that if nothing else. I sincerely hope that you and everyone else here on the shizz has't been a victim and won't ever be a victim of any heinous crime especially of those that are sexual or violent in nature.

[weener]

I'm sorry, I did miss your point, then. I'm glad you're not trying to say that the real victims are men who have to put up with women being cagey when they innocently ask what time it is.

Then why not call it like it is and just say that women should never be blamed for being victims of sexual assault?

Women should never be blamed for being victims of sexual assault.

[bucky]

As a privileged white male who never has had to deal with issues of discrimination, I often wonder how I'm supposed to feel about these things. I know sexual/gender/racial minorities deal with discrimination on a regular (if not daily) basis, and I never think about it. Because it never comes up in my daily life. Should I feel bad about this? Should I be grateful? What should I *do* about it?

Feel bad? Hell no!

There's nothing you have to do... the thing that would make someone like me proud is if you're able to step it up and respond appropriately if/when the situation arises. That's the #1 thing that matters.

Allow me to elaborate. When I first saw two gay dudes kissing in public, I was a little stunned. It wasn't an example of gross PDA or anything like that, it was a night out in the city- people drunk in the streets, bars just let out, etc. It was normal behavior you might expect from a gay or straight couple in that particular neighborhood at that particular time. But, for someone who hadn't seen it before, it was certainly weird. It was before I had done anything with a guy myself, but I already knew I was gay. But even someone like me, who wouldn't have been mean or rude to the kissing couple in question had I interacted with them, it was impossible to not have a thought that was partly negative (in some way) inside my head...

The point I'm trying to make is that it's completely normal to not be totally comfortable (on a surface level) with people who are different or do something you don't see commonly all the time. When someone like me advocates tolerance, I'm not expecting everyone to go find a gay best friend, watch gay porn, or find a way to make themselves immediately comfortable with everything in the "culture". The only thing I ask is that you manage your gut reactions with an open mind and tolerance. It's your behavior (which includes spoken and written words) that truly matters. Like whatever the hell batman or katie holmes said at the end of batman begins... something about 'it's what you do that counts'.

(I should also add that I'm speaking in general, I have zero reason to doubt that you're not completely awesome at this already)

The best way to be an advocate for those who might suffer from discrimination is to act in a way that's awesome when a situation demands it. Like if someone comes out to you, or if people are being negative (like, imagine a coworker is terrified of their kid being gay), if you can drop a few positive words with confidence, you've done your part! That can really go a long way.

I do believe that everyone should consider this. It's not about making yourself a perfect person, it's just about being considerate of others. Imagine how lame it would be if you had a niece or nephew that was getting bullied, and you were ignorantly dropping "fag" and "homo" left and right at thanksgiving dinner? Being homophobic is truly a cancer in many family relationships- some people may feel they have the right to be homophobic, but it's impossible to not risk being a terrible family member or friend if you are. That's the really the bottom line. If you find ways to denounce people for being gay, you risk being a shitty parent, coworker, teacher, whatever. It's an unavoidable truth. If you promote tolerance even in the smallest of ways, you can help those who need it!

[the Wozz]

I liked how Weener and Moon had a civil discussion. Bless you guys.

[Nick The Newbie]

Hey who else likes blowin loads in hot pussies?

[LordMachino]

Guys quick cancel the thread. It turns out that it was wrong from the start.

[atomic-guy]

I think people just need to generally be more aware to the fact that you will never truly understand the perspective of someone belonging to another culture/race/creed/whatever than you. And that's ok. We're all different, which is a good thing. It's important to be open to other perspectives.

I am a young, healthy, white male that is perceived to be straight (for the most part). By and large, I do not face discrimination in my day to day life. I have been in plenty of situations in which I was a clear minority party, so I have an appreciation of that experience, but I will never pretend to know what it's like to be a black person in America, for example.

When these debates pop up, such as the gender inequality issues in this thread, I'm very aware that I don't know what it's like to be a woman in this society. So I listen. I try to imagine myself in that situation. I'll never fully understand it, but I can be open and learn. (And by the same token, women don't know what it's like to be a man. Inequality exists, don't get me wrong, but openness and understanding is a two way street in every debate like this).


One other thing I wanted to say about the use of language. I think there are potent arguments on both sides in terms of robbing these words of their derogatory meanings vs. not using them because they are hurtful. You can feel very strongly about the former and insist that these words have lost their meaning, but at the end of the day, if a good friend of yours said to you "When you say 'fag' around me it really hurts, could you please stop" -- are you really going to say no and take a principled stand? Again, just be sensitive to your friend's perspective, and at least stop using it around them. Otherwise, you may end up losing that friend.

[Shervz0r]

When these debates pop up, such as the gender inequality issues in this thread, I'm very aware that I don't know what it's like to be a woman in this society. So I listen. I try to imagine myself in that situation. I'll never fully understand it, but I can be open and learn. (And by the same token, women don't know what it's like to be a man. Inequality exists, don't get me wrong, but openness and understanding is a two way street in every debate like this).

This really can't be overstated enough, I slowly came to realize this over discussions I've had with women because as a man it can be really hard to see and impossible to experience. Well said man.

[Skiptastic]

More women should be awesome whores. Men get to live their lives as awesome whores! Maybe I just believe in equality.

That smacks of going to the lowest common denominator for everyone rather than expecting better of men. I'd call that moving backwards instead of moving forwards. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.