179 replies to this topic

[Jadbgjoka]

I honestly can't remember the last time I heard someone say "Faggot" in a way that was actually meant to refer to a homosexual person. I think the word has almost completely changed its meaning and turned into a generic insult.

[Jace]

^This is something I strongly disagree with Louis on. I think otherwise super-intelligent people like himself want that word to be neutral because it is such an ingrained, taken-for-granted part of their vocabulary.

It's a word that is thrown at myself a lot here in frat-tastic Athens, GA. Do I think they are consciously saying to me, "you are a homosexual, which I disapprove of!"? No. Do I think they're saying, "you aren't like me in a way that I find offensive!" Yes. Do I think the root of their word of choice lies in a specific type of "not like me" that is directly related, however far back (or not) in their minds, to a man who isn't masculine enough, or in the right ways? Of course. The word doesn't have to refer directly and in the moment, or even consciously, to a homosexual person to be related, however deeply, to a prejudice against the things that make homosexuality distasteful to people who prefer a particular type of hetero-normative masculinity. I strongly believe that words, as symbols, can have meanings that we do not intend and are not aware of.

I feel like we've had this conversation on the board before, about the word "gay" in the same "it's neutral because me and my friends say it and I want it to be because, hey, we're not hateful," or something like that, context. I don't think it really went anywhere.

As far as whether or not society is moving "backwards," when were we "forward"? edit: I ask this because I think there have always been people lamenting a cultural slide of morals and dignity.

[Klatrymadon]

Exactly. It's good that Louis C.K. wants to distance himself from actually abusive or violent homophobes, but that wasn't an argument (for keeping the word around) at all.

[raubhimself]

Do I think they're saying, "you aren't like me in a way that I find offensive!" Yes. Do I think the root of their word of choice lies in a specific type of "not like me" that is directly related, however far back (or not) in their minds, to a man who isn't masculine enough, or in the right ways? Of course. Maybe things are different out west where XMark lives. The word doesn't have to refer directly and in the moment, or even consciously, to a homosexual person to be related, however deeply, to a prejudice against the things that make homosexuality distasteful to people who prefer a particular type of hetero-normative masculinity.

I have been called, like I'm sure most people who ride bikes regularly have been, a bike fag on multiple occasions. I honestly find it kind of funny that someone using a 1000+ lb machine to haul their ass around thinks that using your own will and strength to get around is somehow "faggy".

Slinging insults like that is surely less about the target than the person firing them off. Does someone yelling "bike fag" at me really intend to belittle my own masculinity? To me it's more likely that they are trying to reinforce their own opinion of themselves and to impress peers. This type of behavior happens in middle school/high school for a reason and while it's not acceptable it's understandable in that context. It's much harder to justify in the context of grown ass people and really just exposes their weaknesses.

[tibone]

I think tolerance can be more than just never saying a slur.

I don't use those words and i don't see the point.
But, at least around here, the kind of friend-treatment you're talking about is pretty common between guys.

There's even a joke that says :

A woman meets a aquintence on the street, dialog follows :
- Oh, how are you? New haircut? You look fabulous.
- Thanks, you do too? Lost weight ? how is that marvellous husband of yours?

They go their ways and think :
"that bitch, she looks ridiculous with that haircut".
"everybody knows that her husband is a drunk loser, stupid fat bitch."

A man meets a aquintence on the street, dialog follows :
- Hey bitch, a rat chewed on your hair? You look ridiculous bro!
- At least i don't look like a cock-sucker with that stupid shirt, you ass!

They go their ways and think :
"that guy is a good person, a good friend"
"he is probably my best friend".


So, i think that when you are closer to someone, you have the liberty to say stuff like that, in a different way, it's no different from being sarcastic, imho.
Of course, you don't mean that, and you are friends with the person, and the other person knows that and knows that is cool. If someone asks for "hey, no calling me whatever", usually everybody respects.

So, at least around here, it's not a new thing.


But yeah, society is slowly regressing it seems. There were some stupid crimes in São Paulo last year, a gay couple was beaten with a fluorescent lamp in the middle of the street, just because they were holding hands. And another one was attacked at a party, because they were kissing. I mean, a straight couple kissing, in a party in a club, it's not something that enfuriates anyone, so why a gay couple doing the same should?
That is the kind of attitude that fears me.


Now, calling my friends faggots or cock-suckers, that is commonplace between my group of friends, and we know it's all cool, after all we know each other for 10+ years hanging out pretty much every weekend.

[armor]

The internet is a great tool for smarties.
Internet makes smart smarter and dumb dumber.
----------

About some recent racial tensions.

“This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black,” Zimmerman is heard saying in NBC’s edited version.

NBC Fires Producer in Flap Over Manipulated 911 Call in Trayvon Martin Case

This Trayvon Martin thing has been getting milked for all its worth to escalate racial tensions.

Some of the new black panthers are basically calling for lynching this guy, he'll get what he deserves if you go with due process and shit'll come out in the wash. Don't even get me started on how Sharpton Obama and Jackson have twisted this, doesn't reflect well on them.

[LordMachino]

This Trayvon Martin thing has been getting milked for all its worth to escalate racial tensions.

I agree. I hope people don't take the wrong way, and that I manage to get this across as I intend to. A human killed a young human and that is terrible. Even if the guy who killed him was racially driven, everyone else doesn't need to put as much emphasis on race as he did and stoop to his level of thinking. A human ended an innocent human's life and it can't get any worse than that.

All the world really needs is to

[Sam]

I think you hit it on the head with the "uneducated" classification.
Those with limited vocabularies use racial slurs in derogatory manner not because they are homophobic (well, some are) but because they lack the knowledge of a more appropriate word. Your example is the perfect representation of this.

I'm not sure that I agree completely (but feel free to correct me if I misunderstand/misapply anything that you meant; regardless, this is a decent enough stand-alone point). As a society, we are certainly better-educated and more technologically savvy than at any point in history. We have greater understanding of the physical world, and have a much greater access to education, than we did, say, 100 years ago. But people 100 years ago didn't seem to have the same problems of coarseness and ill manners. This is a bug country, so much will depend on where you were, but it legitimately does seem like a much more...decent, upright time. This is not to say that things were perfect, of course. By that time, for example, the federal government had largely abandoned blacks in the South to the yoke of Jim Crow, and there were anti-immigrant sentiments around Ellis Island. But I still get the feeling that people were, in general, much more decent to each other.

Without being too predictable, I wonder about the decline of "traditional values," whatever that might mean. Well, this country was largely founded on Judeo-Christian values, even if those values to be infected from time to time with heresy and idiocy. We could identify, as examples, things like: take care of your family and friends, be decent to strangers, go to church on Sundays and look nice doing it, don't have sex before marriage, work hard and pull your own weight, and everyone who isn't a Protestant is Hell-bound.

Then came all of the revolutions of the 1960s: cultural, sexual, civil rights, etc. These all kind of got intertwined at various points, and represented (both individually and collectively) a huge challenge to the moral fabric of the nation (again, speaking in broad strokes). Without making value judgments on the merits of either the traditional values or the counter-culture (although it should go without saying that I think that chastity is good and racism bad), it had two related effects in my mind. First, such a huge displacement of ingrained values caused those who still held to those traditional values to resist. They believed in their values, and didn't want them to disappear. Both sides thought that the other was dead wrong; the old ways were those of antiquated overbearing fascists, while the new ways were those of dangerous wicked anarchists. The aforementioned intertwining didn't help things, because even if you were pro-racial harmony, that also seemed to mean that you were equally pro-fornication. We still have a lot of these issues in politics today with the "left" and the "right."

The second effect came after the revolutions were reasonably successful, and we know today that they are. They were very successful in changing and displacing the traditional values, but they haven't really offered all that much as a replacement. They successfully tore down the hold of the Western Judeo-Christian ethics, but what has been erected in place of those values? Sex? Drugs? Rock-n-roll? Individualism? Hedonism? I'm sure that "If it feels good, do it" seems like a fun idea at first, but I don't know how ultimately fulfilling it is.

Okay, I'll stop now and leave time for replies. Just getting some thoughts down and seeing where they go.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

[atomic-guy]

I honestly can't remember the last time I heard someone say "Faggot" in a way that was actually meant to refer to a homosexual person. I think the word has almost completely changed its meaning and turned into a generic insult.

Happened to me a couple weeks ago. It's a rare occurrence, but it sure makes me feel bad about myself when it does happen.

[Ryan8bit]

All the world really needs is to

For some reason I find this picture incredibly ironic because in that movie, Bill thinks Ted (or vice versa, I can't remember) was dead, and when he finds that he's alive they both hug each other. Then they back off and say, "Fag!" at the same time. It kind of surprised me when I saw it again because I'm not sure I understood that context when I was a kid.

[WilliamTheBard]

I can't speak for anyone else, but on the few occasions that I've used slurs toward someone in anger it was to hurt them by pinpointing an obvious difference in them. I can only remember really doing it once when I said i could be banned soon to a classmate when I was in the second grade or so. Thing was, she was white but had a black brother and I for whatever reason was in an argument with her. I feel bad about it now, wasn't fair or anything, but I remember thinking "aha! this'll hurt her!". It was just a specific word I could use as a weapon. Oddly enough, the only other time I really do anything like that is when I get frustrated with myself and call myself a faggot. I've done this numerous times and I'm sure it's based on all the times I got called it in high school (my yearbook is rife with the term).

[eddyrocku]

Bill and Ted 3 is coming soon. Maybe that would make society move forward.

[Leonidus]

I cuss all the fucking time because I grew up poor and that's what everyone else did, so that's how I learned to talk. I think just explaining it away as behavior of the uneducated is accepting too easy of an answer. It's more like a dialect or accent than indicative of intelligence. It's simply speaking like the people you grew up around spoke, which is exactly how everyone else learned how to speak.

What I mean is don't think 'that person says fuck a lot, they must be dumb.' Think 'they probably grew up poor.'

To all of the left leaning shizzies hating on the right's intolerance: you need to seriously examine your own side. Leftist racism is much more effective and insidious than that of the right, because the right is really blatant and bad at being racist.

Everyone railing against rednecks honestly cannot compare anything to what happens in the ghetto. Not only is the ghetto more racist and violent, it is even more ignorant, by far, than the average rural community. Anyone who thinks some white people are racist should go ask some mexicans how much they hate blacks, or hear black people go on and on about the jews.

And to everyone wondering why there's so much racism on the internet, I think the answer is because it's consequence free. A lot of people with pent up frustration can't call someone that beat them up in high school a i could be banned soon, because then they'll get their ass beat again. They can't call someone a fag whenever they want, because then they might get their ass beat. The internet is anonymous and removes the possibility of punishment.

So people who could never normally say what they want, now all of the sudden can, so they do, and they're nerd raging assholes about it. It's like if the worst employee at the store suddenly became the boss - he'd be fucking insane to everyone, just like he always wanted.

Overall, I think society is balkanizing. We're being split up into smaller and smaller interest groups against each other, and it's not going to end well for anyone.

[joe.distort]

someone that beat them up in high school a i could be banned soon,

uh word filter???

also, i totally agree with the cursing...people often assume i am angry/stupid when i talk because i say FUCK a lot. like...A LOT.

[the Wozz]

cock and pussy, yea.

cock and pussy, yea.

cock and pussy, yea.

cock and pussy, yea.