45 replies to this topic

[JRC]

So, I got my dander up over innerear's diss at the PHIX in its RIP thread, but have to say I agree that sound matters (although I don't w/ his few/better opinion).

Anyway, maybe it's time to talk about what any space should have for a sound system?
Based on room size, type of music presented, and any basic minimum.
I know there's more then one pro engineer on this board, and everyone has an opinion, so lets not DISS, but discuss.

Trunk space has 2 "piggybacked" PAs, a pair of 900 w 3-way CARVIN's and a pair of brutal CELESTIONs w/ a 300 w head--for when we need extra umpf. All are 20" woofs w/ corresponding mids and highs.
(We've also got a pair of small bass cabs, that just aren't hooked up right now.)

We've got one of those [hated] Eurorack mixers w/ 12 channels, and currently no eq (I know I know).
1 monitor, and an option for a 2nd that is pretty blown).

Add to that a bucket full of mics, of various types; although I don't use too many SM58s as personal experience has proven to me they're actually (despite conventional wisdom) pretty crappy.
+2.5 DIs and a bag o' adaptors.

As far as our sound techs go, well basically, that is me.
When needed I can call on a couple of more folks w/ more skill but it's a pretty basic operation really.

We tend to just mic vocals and the odd acoustic guitar and keyboards mostly.
As you know if you've been in, I aint micing your kick drum, and amps only for rare exceptions.

I don't mean this thread to just be all TS, but it's what I know.

What're the "universal" minimums?
What about a place 2X our size, or Modified back in the day?
What places, despite their reputation and "professionalism" were universally terrible?
Who was/is above reproach?

lets not DISS, but discuss . . .

[fatguyaz]

pfft. All that stuff sucks!












pfft.

[Rial]

I don't really know what brand of gear can improve a place, and really I only really notice the PA when the sound is bad. Like Chasers, for being a pretty legit looking set up (monitors for all musicians, big PA speakers, a sound dude booth) the sound there as been disappointing to the point were I can't really stand it, trying not to diss, it just bums me out.

But you have different venues with different concerns, for a place like the trunkspace and the dressing room and even smaller bars like The Rouge can usually just rock a PA for vocals and that is about it. Perhaps its how the room is sound proofed? Or not sound proofed, or shaped. Sweets and Beats always sounds brutal and awesome, maybe because it is a smaller/rounder room. I also like how the dressing room sounds and that is essentially a living room. I think sometimes the extra space behind the stage at the trunkspace creates weird sounds, for loud rock at least.
But for smaller more intimate places, its about playing around with noises in the room and where sound echoes off, a place like Chasers that has spent what looks like alot of money, should really shine as a place with excellent sound.

From what I remember the Sets had decent sound, maybe a square room is the way to go, speaker placement etc.

[skeksis]

I'm a performer - not an engineer - and not really all that discriminating anyway.

Bottom line is - I'd rather sing through a 100w 4 channel 20-yr old Crate POS pushing a pair of 10" cabs in the hands of a person with a little KNOWHOW and EARS than a great system in the hands of an average joe (myself included). Circumstances change, an 'engineer' needs to know what to do with different spaces, bands, crowds etc. Almost no modern PA is going to be so bad that it can't be worked with... some spaces will be more trouble than others, but I bet most places with 'bad' sound are more a function of operator error.

That's sorta a cop-out answer to the question, but yeah.

Again, as a performer, I'm always way happier to see a modest effort at a monitor setup rather than huge mains.

IF you routinely run instruments through the PA, particularly bass and drums, your 'minimum requirements' increase exponentially. If you're just pushing vocals and an occasional acoustic guitar... you can do the job with a really small rig.

ALSO it's not the 1970's anymore. No excuse for bringing stadium amps into an art space or neighborhood bar. None of us are Pete Townshend. Point being that musicians ought to be self aware enough to manage their volume, in which case a modest PA will carry just about anything. I'll wear earplugs... but we're smart enough now that I shouldn't have to. Likewise ,the days of screaming teenage girls (think Elvis or the Beatles) are long gone, we don't need to push the volume over that - so why tolerate unbelievably loud music? just sayin'.

[MikeyWretch]

I dont give a fuck about anything!

Good sound bad sound what ever!

If I was getting paid on how good we sounded maybe I would care but I play cause I like to play and really dont ever complain about PAs ever. But it could be because my own gear sucks all bad so there for I could never tell a venue that they have shitty gear.

[chadk]

lets not DISS, but discuss.

you can't Discuss without dis's or cusses

[Jacki O.]

Donald's PA is the shizz

[Tender Lad]

Do what you can with what you've got. I'm used to the venues that just have a small vocal PA. A good band will still sound good with that.

I have done sound at plenty of places that had a full set up (front of house plus side stage monitor mixer. A good band will sound awesome through one of these systems with a good soundperson, a shitty band will sound louder.

The system at the PHIX was fine. Some bands just expect more and get their nuts in a bind because they think they need more.

[MikeyWretch]

Do what you can with what you've got. I'm used to the venues that just have a small vocal PA. A good band will still sound good with that.

I have done sound at plenty of places that had a full set up (front of house plus side stage monitor mixer. A good band will sound awesome through one of these systems with a good soundperson, a shitty band will sound louder.

The system at the PHIX was fine. Some bands just expect more and get their nuts in a bind because they think they need more.

POW!

[billy]

Do what you can with what you've got. I'm used to the venues that just have a small vocal PA. A good band will still sound good with that.

I have done sound at plenty of places that had a full set up (front of house plus side stage monitor mixer. A good band will sound awesome through one of these systems with a good soundperson, a shitty band will sound louder.

The system at the PHIX was fine. Some bands just expect more and get their nuts in a bind because they think they need more.

POW!

FTW!

[MikeyWretch]

Do what you can with what you've got. I'm used to the venues that just have a small vocal PA. A good band will still sound good with that.

I have done sound at plenty of places that had a full set up (front of house plus side stage monitor mixer. A good band will sound awesome through one of these systems with a good soundperson, a shitty band will sound louder.

The system at the PHIX was fine. Some bands just expect more and get their nuts in a bind because they think they need more.

POW!

FTW!

FML!

[chalupacabra]

I'm a performer - not an engineer - and not really all that discriminating anyway.

Bottom line is - I'd rather sing through a 100w 4 channel 20-yr old Crate POS pushing a pair of 10" cabs in the hands of a person with a little KNOWHOW and EARS than a great system in the hands of an average joe (myself included). Circumstances change, an 'engineer' needs to know what to do with different spaces, bands, crowds etc. Almost no modern PA is going to be so bad that it can't be worked with... some spaces will be more trouble than others, but I bet most places with 'bad' sound are more a function of operator error.

That's sorta a cop-out answer to the question, but yeah.

Again, as a performer, I'm always way happier to see a modest effort at a monitor setup rather than huge mains.

IF you routinely run instruments through the PA, particularly bass and drums, your 'minimum requirements' increase exponentially. If you're just pushing vocals and an occasional acoustic guitar... you can do the job with a really small rig.

ALSO it's not the 1970's anymore. No excuse for bringing stadium amps into an art space or neighborhood bar. None of us are Pete Townshend. Point being that musicians ought to be self aware enough to manage their volume, in which case a modest PA will carry just about anything. I'll wear earplugs... but we're smart enough now that I shouldn't have to. Likewise ,the days of screaming teenage girls (think Elvis or the Beatles) are long gone, we don't need to push the volume over that - so why tolerate unbelievably loud music? just sayin'.

There are some really good points in here. I've seen people get pretty crappy PAs to sound good just by knowing what they're doing and places running giant set ups sound like ass. So I definitely thing you're on the right track with that first bit there.

None of us are Pete Townshend

No, I'm better.

As far as:

No excuse for bringing stadium amps into an art space or neighborhood bar

and

why tolerate unbelievably loud music?

Because it rules, that's why. This is pureley subjective, sure. I mean. You guys would never sound good at the volumes we play at and vice versa. Some things just work way way better loud. And its not limited to "heavy" music. Like, if you went to see Sonic Youth or Dinosaur Jr and could nearly talk over the volume...it'd probably be pretty bad.

[mattm]

Volume rules...

bad systems are tough to deal with (but can be dealt with)... idiot sound people make it even worse. Modified was a prime example, some shows sounded great and some sounded horrid depending on what "sound person" you were dealt. Hissong is an excellent soundman and I have seen (or moreso heard)him polish some sonic turds.

as far as the good, Dodge Theatre sounds good, and the Mason Jar was oddly a good to great sounding place. I think that chasers has some potential... the monitor situation needs sorted out for sure, which I feel would solve much of the problem!

[chadk]

must play loud

http://stereogum.com...ill_watch/news/

[fatguyaz]

Do what you can with what you've got. I'm used to the venues that just have a small vocal PA. A good band will still sound good with that.

I have done sound at plenty of places that had a full set up (front of house plus side stage monitor mixer. A good band will sound awesome through one of these systems with a good soundperson, a shitty band will sound louder.

The system at the PHIX was fine. Some bands just expect more and get their nuts in a bind because they think they need more.

POW!

FTW!

FML!

For My Lunch?

I agree with this as well. "Do well with what you have" is key. Takes the right person, for sure.

Playing LOUD is just dumb if you don't have a massive PA to support the vocals. Nothing's worse than having a PA that just squeals the whole set. Take Yucca, before it changed set-ups recently. Bands ALWAYS played too loud for the vocal PA. Knock it off, Chad. You too, Matt.