107 replies to this topic

[chadk]

so prop 400 is to continue the completion of the high ways, and continue the LIGHT RAIL, or at least get it off the ground.


some people don't want a light rail, because they think that prop 400 is diverting money from the completion of our highways.

symington and thompson want the referendum voted down and then for voters to decide next year light rail and highway funding in two separate ballot questions. next year? jhey everybody lets just talk about the ligt rail and not do anything about it.

supporters argue new roads and transit spending are essential to keep up with growth and traffic congestion. they also contend the plan will benefit the entire region, including the central core as well as new and existing suburbs

personally i'd rather have a light rail then more highways.

less traffic, less smog, less drinking and driving, less sprawl.

when it's built and running of course, but yea what do you all think?

[chadk]

hey don can you move this to general, i was in the wrong forum sorry

[mikemfer]

Isn't the light rail going to take like 15 years to build?

[mothrock]

they are supposed to put one in up here in seattle. All I know is that I had to pay 160$ in fucking monorail taxes when I renewed my tabs. Just read the proposition before you vote I guess. It's messed up here, they charge .12% of the NEW retail value of your vehicle. (or whatever your title states), I think that is messed up because it is like punishing you for driving a more expensive car. I think they should base taxation for project like this off of fuel consumption. That way, people that like to ride around in SUVs will be contributing more to the building of a light rail system. Where as people that actually care about the enivironment won't get screwed over because the value on their title is 16,000$ ??!!

sorry to vent. I think I got had on my tabs. I was very pissed when they told me how the monorail tax worked. And they aren't even going to start contruction for like another 5 years or something. AND it won't go anywhere I need to go. YAY!!!

[mikemfer]

I agree with you on the automobile tags mothrock. But most taxes are that way. People who make a lot of money pay up to 36% in taxes whereas broke mofos might cap out at 10% if they pay anything at all. I make a little more money now than I used to and every time I look at how much federal tax I've paid out for the year all of the sudden my asshole feels sore.

A gas tax is a usage tax, that would be proportionally fair to cover transportation costs. A guy driving a Civic 20 miles to work is doing less damage than someone driving an Excursion 40 miles to work, regardless of the fact that the guy in the Civic might be making twice as much money. And if that Civic is brand new the tags are going to be a couple hundred bucks. Meanwhile some guy is driving his beat up Chevy Nova around spewing black smoke everywhere and paying ten bucks for his tags.

I don't think this light rail is even slated to go anywhere significant, does anyone know if there is a map of the proposed route?

[aaronburke]

but income tax is very very different than
a percentage based monorail tax, and there
are ways to pay very little tax when you reach
the higher brackets.

[mikemfer]

Information on proposition 400 from the Arizona Republic:

Explaining ins, outs of Proposition 400

Sept. 16, 2004 12:00 AM

Here is some background information on Proposition 400.

QUESTION: What does Proposition 400 do?

ANSWER: It would extend for another 20 years a half-cent transportation sales tax in Maricopa County that was first approved in 1985 to fund freeway construction. Without voter approval for an extension, the tax expires at the end of 2005.

Q: How much money would be raised and what would it be used for?

A: The tax would raise an estimated $9 billion from 2005 to 2025. Combined with state and federal transportation funds, it would create a $17.6 billion pot of regional transportation money to finance a plan adopted by Valley mayors earlier this year through the Maricopa Association of Governments.

Q: What is in the plan?

A: Funding for new freeways in the Valley's high-growth areas; new interchanges and lanes for existing freeways; 275 miles of new or improved arterial streets; 1,200 new bus pullouts, 40 regional bus routes and 2,100 new buses; and 27 new miles of light rail, adding to a system already in the works in Phoenix and Tempe.

Q: If voters reject Proposition 400, will light rail in Phoenix and the Valley be dead?

A: No. A 20-mile "minimum operating segment" is already funded and in planning stages.

It will run from 19th Avenue and Bethany Home Road through downtown Phoenix and Tempe to Mesa's western edge. Phoenix voters approved the plan in spring 2000 as part of a city transit tax that also expanded bus service. Tempe has since joined the effort.

That system will be built regardless of Proposition 400's outcome.

Proposition 400 would add 27 miles of new routes, stretching light rail into the suburbs. Glendale voters have approved use of transit taxes to finance a Glendale leg.

Q: How much would be spent on each type of transportation in the MAG plan?

A: Of the $15.8 billion dedicated to program funding, $9 billion, or 57 percent, would fund freeways; $2.7 billion, or 17 percent, would fund the regional bus system; $2.3 billion, or 15 percent, would fund light-rail expansion; and $1.5 billion, or 9 percent, would fund arterial streets.

The remaining 2 percent would fund air-quality programs, bike and pedestrian routes and planning activities.

Q: If voters reject the measure, could the Arizona Legislature draft its own plan next year?

A: It could, but proponents say that billions of dollars in federal transportation funds would be lost because the federal government requires a regional planning authority to create the plan, as MAG and local mayors have done. Arizona governors for years have designated MAG as the responsible planning authority for regional issues, and it was through MAG, working with the state Department of Transportation, that the current plan was created.

Opponents believe they could craft a new plan early next year and gain legislative support.

But proponents say the current plan grew from two years of complex study by engineers and transportation professionals that could not be duplicated, nor do they believe lawmakers would find a consensus, as local mayors have.

Q: Does this plan address the southeast Valley's growth into Pinal County?

A: Not directly, because taxes collected from Maricopa County taxpayers cannot be spent on Pinal County projects. But Williams Gateway Freeway in Mesa has been planned to run to the county line in anticipation of linking with Pinal County roadways so residents in that part of the metro area have reasonable access.

The MAG Transportation Planning Committee has been in discussions with Pinal County about that county's efforts. Opponents of Proposition 400 counter that nothing is being done to encourage joint county planning.

Q: If voters approve the plan, can money be shifted from one project to another? Who will monitor spending?

A: Money cannot be shifted from one mode of transportation to another. All money programmed for freeways must be spent on freeways; ditto for street and transit funds.

Major changes to projects in the plan must undergo renewed public review and approval through MAG, with oversight by a Citizens Transportation Oversight Committee. Annual program audits and five-year performance audits of each transportation mode are required under legislation approved by state lawmakers.

[chadk]

i'm still down

[unluckycharm]

edit:

i've got a feeling that if / when the light rail is completed, it's not really going to do a lot to solve the traffic problems. people are still going to want to drive cars everywhere like mad. there will be a stigma about the light rail, like there is with buses.

[Colin]

i've got a feeling that if / when the light rail is completed, it's not really going to do a lot to solve the traffic problems. people are still going to want to drive cars everywhere like mad. there will be a stigma about the light rail, like there is with buses.

Yes, there will still be traffic. Most people will drive unless there is a compelling reason not to, which means as soon as there is easy traffic, everyone will hit the road again til there is traffic. That doesn't mean that something like a rail wont be a help and wont be utilized. I live in Boston where we have pretty extensive public transportation. There's still crazy traffic, but people like me who'd rather take the subway have options. There are so many reasons why I prefer the subway to driving. Buses are different because they are subject to traffic and weather and hence are frequently late or worse, early.

Having alternatives to sitting in a car baking in the sun and polluting the air would make moving to Phoenix more attractive to me.

[chadk]

i agree, that it's good only to the place that you wnat to go.

but there has to be a begining somewhere and thats going to be where it is needed most first.

then eventually it will branch out.

the same thing happend (here comes the obligitory chads refrence to denver) DENVER but it has grown to many other parts of the commuinty other then 5 ponts and the south side.

and we have to understand that it will cause traffic while construstion is being done as well.

but at least we have wide streets here, denvers traffic was terrible due to small streets that need converting for the rail way.

i guess for being one of the largest cities in the country i would assume this should happen.

lets think of a major city without one?

[chadk]

I live in Boston where we have pretty extensive public transportation

when i visited boston i was really stoked that i could get around by riding the rail,

that might be a plus for tourists like me,

i didn't even mind having to get off at one point because something was wrong, i just hoped on another.

i don't know, i like feeling like i'm in a city

[transonic]

It's like the movie, Singles . People love their cars in this country.

It seems hypocritical to me when people support the war but then turn around and don't support something that will help make this country safer by reducing the number of cars on the road. Driving a car is probably the most dangerous activity we will engage in during an average day. In 2002 over 42,000 Americans died in car accidents. How many Americans died from terrorism in 2002? If George Bush is so concerned about protecting American lives, then why isn't he doing anything about car fatalities? Maybe it's because they burn oil, and oil helps keep the Bush family rich. In fact, Bush sends more Americans to die so we can take over Iraq and make sure one more country in the middle east will provide us with oil.

I support Prop 400 because not only will it reduce traffic, but it will reduce pollution and other environmental hazards that are the downfalls of living in Phoenix.

Say it with me now: "Monorail"