72 replies to this topic

[skeksis]

Yeah, that's called opportunity cost. Important info for the venue to know so they make a good decision about who to book - but losing imaginary $ is very different than blaming a band for losing actual $.

[JRC]

TS gets emails from groups like this all the time, to host their shows.
Always looks and smells like BS.
We ignore it.

[HNIC]

but losing imaginary $ is very different than blaming a band for losing actual $.

If the venue does everything in its power, fliers, internet, New Times (any free local press), etc etc and the band does NOTHING who is to blame then? Its amazing the amount of medium sized local bands that will blow an agent and presell tix to support a shit touring band because so and so "bigger" local agency says to vs. doing actual work on their own local shows.

[HNIC]

honestly if you cant draw more than 5 people you are costing a venue money, and thats usually do to the fact....

honestly, I'd love to hear the economic reasoning behind that statement. 5 people is still more than the zero that would be there without this hypothetical band. IF this band has $200 guarantee or something, then yeah you're losing $. A lot of places around here don't offer any guarantee plus the band pays the soundguy (out of door proceeds)... So it costs the venue almost nothing to have a band perform... A few pennies for electricity, maybe a handful of drink tokens. Easily offset by the 5 folks who turned out.

Sure a rational venue would prefer 50 over 5; but 5 > 0.

Soundguy, electricity, door guy, staff, advertising, drink tix, rent, licensing...yeah, the few pennies for electricity just went up.

[Tony]

honestly if you cant draw more than 5 people you are costing a venue money, and thats usually do to the fact....

honestly, I'd love to hear the economic reasoning behind that statement. 5 people is still more than the zero that would be there without this hypothetical band. IF this band has $200 guarantee or something, then yeah you're losing $. A lot of places around here don't offer any guarantee plus the band pays the soundguy (out of door proceeds)... So it costs the venue almost nothing to have a band perform... A few pennies for electricity, maybe a handful of drink tokens. Easily offset by the 5 folks who turned out.

Sure a rational venue would prefer 50 over 5; but 5 > 0.

Soundguy, electricity, door guy, staff, advertising, drink tix, rent, licensing...yeah, the few pennies for electricity just went up.

i'm not trying to instigate because i realize those are all valid expenses, but if you're open anyways (like a bar would be open, vs. a venue like trunk space which wouldn't be open unless there was a show) don't a lot of those become sunk costs? with the exception of sound guy, wouldn't you need to pay for all that whether there was a band or not?

[HNIC]

Nope, a standard bar would not have to advertise in the way a venue does, and in most cases drink tix go away, as does a door person / security (cuz your bartender can ID), so now a night that costs a few hundred dollars goes down to costing maybe $50. I know its easy to say "its a venues fault, who do they think they are asking us to work for a show, if they did their jobs our fans would be there"...but lets be honest if you arent doing your job YOUR fans DONT KNOW. The venue & promoter can not be expected to reach your class mates, co-workers, family etc...

[skeksis]

All of those costs are the venue's cost for making the decision to open their doors & have nothing whatsoever to do with which band they hire.

The band is providing a service, just like your staff. Except you expect a band at near-zero cost to 1) be well rehearsed (say 6 hrs prep for the gig, 4 members x say $20/hr = value $480); 2) provide instruments amps drums (average value $1000 per person = $4000, but spread over many gigs; 3) haul their own gear and perform (when I did weddings, I got paid $100/hr = another $400-800); and 4) promote the heck out the gig & your sorry venue (hard to estimate value, but it's not insignificant).

And yet bands all over Phx play and consider $50 + 2 drinks a real good night AND get shit for being lazy? Bah. Maybe if you paid bands more than a tiny fraction of their worth, you could reasonably expect them to work even harder. But really, for them it's a cost with no benefit. The irrationality hurts to think about. The only ones losing $ are the band members.

[HNIC]

And our electric cost increases DRAMATIC with a full PA pushing through it...


On a side note I love how an "artist" based board who are all about giving up 50%+ to a gallery for WALL SPACE are jumping all over a venue/promoter for expecting a slight bit of work...amazing.

So if you draw 5 people I should bend over backwards, over pay you and get you drunk...sounds fair.

[Rial]

I email my whole family contact information to every venue I play, cousins, 2nd cousins, brothers from different mothers, foster children, etc.

I think too much gets asked by a venue in regards to putting on a show. People usual don't go some where for the hell of it, there has to be a draw, and if your going to say the Rougue just to drink, you may be turned off by a cover charge or bands you haven't heard. I am generalizing. It takes two to tango, bands to promote, a venue to provide an enjoyable place to see a show.

If its a band scene its everyones fault.

[HNIC]

No no its just the venues fault, I should be paying you to practice...

[skeksis]

Hey - that's still 5 more than your staff brought, and they're gonna get paid :-)

[MikeyWretch]

It all works itself out.

The hard way usually.

If your band plays and no one comes after being booked there a couple times they will stop booking you.

If you do bring fans and the place sucks or for some reason you get jipped some how then the band will stop playing there.

[HNIC]

Hey - that's still 5 more than your staff brought, and they're gonna get paid :-)

Actually, wrong, many nights I bartend and for some reason can ring in better numbers than some shows...I'm not trying to take away from "your art" but the reality is bands in this town have gotten lazier while I end up working twice as hard to get the word out. Thats the sad reason why pay to play is rearing its ugly head for some venues. It just sucks for the future...

[HNIC]

Hey - that's still 5 more than your staff brought, and they're gonna get paid :-)

So what should a band that draws 5 people @ $6 a head get paid for future reference?

[skeksis]

One last point, then I'm done: if you've already made the conceptual leap from a) the band provides a service to the venue (ie band gets paid for that service) to the venue provides a service to the band (ie a place to perform their art), then the shift to asking the band to pay for that service (pay to play) is a tiny step... Either way the venue/promoter get paid - either you deliberately put your hand in the band's wallet, or you get cheap/free labor & promotion, you pick.