101 replies to this topic

[Mary]

And really, no matter what, I think it's best not to have made good on the threat. With people still alive, and nobody facing the death penalty, and stuff like that . . . better.

[hunter]

Haha. =)

I wouldn't want to know a maniac like him. I mean he's obviously 1) Stupid (trying to call a business / bar "Drunkenstein's" then to think his "rights" were somehow violated and 2) Crazy. It's fortunate for us that he wasn't able to commit his murderous plans but even planning something like that should get you put in jail for the long haul.

[bob]

hunter,

i'm really not sure there's anything innately stupid about calling a bar drunkenstein's. i mean, he didn't tell the city council that's what he wanted to call it. it seemed like he just wanted to put a sign up, inside the building, by the bar area that said this. it seemed more like a brain fart that he put on a message board, that the city council found out about. i mean, i've never put anything stupid on a messageboard. (that's sarcasm.) from what i understand, he wanted to call the venue/bar, haunted castle. i've seen 1000 worse bar names.

i mean there's a chain of bars/restaurants called Hooters. is that really any less offensive or damaging than drunkenstien's? oh, yeah, i forgot they meant the owl. not female breasts. i mean if anything, it's kind of sad/funny that we can't call a bar: 'hey, sad guy, get drunk here!' or 'this is where you get wasted, drive home, and hopefully not get a DUI.' that's definitely what they should call the bikini. i mean, there's no one in there with a bikini on, that i've ever seen.

i mean, sure, havelock's probably crazier than a bat in some cliche henhouse, or whatever, but i mean, this is a guy that was trying to give back to his community. maybe that's why he's crazy. he was trying to help us. he didn't post, 'man, i'm going to be raking it in after this bar opens.' he seemed excited about a new spot with live music.

no, his reaction to being shut down was not in the scope of normal behavior, and he obviously needs help. (arguing whether or not he's beyond help is not a subject i feel at all qualified to breach, and find it kind of insulting that you think that you can judge this.)

this is a tragedy.

luckily it's only a tragedy for his family. which is an awful sentence to type. this is not something to laugh about. i don't find any humor in what's going to happen to this guy. i don't find any humor in what he might have done, but because he didn't go through with it, i still have sympathy.

i'm going to get a little deep here at the end, hopefully not too much, but i guess you think that you're incapable of violence, whether it's following orders, like the SS, or reacting to something in an extreme, seemingly unthinkable way like havelock did. i mean, it requires a few screws loose, for sure, but your screws don't seem so tight to me, making fun of such a sad story. he's going away for a long time, and i can't imagine he doesn't deserve it, which just makes it all the more sad.

[Danosaur]

UPDATE

Man found guilty of criminal charges in Super Bowl plot
June 12th, 2008 @ 4:57pm
by Associated Press

A man accused of planning a massacre at this year's Super Bowl was convicted Thursday of federal charges.

Kurt Havelock faced six counts of mailing threatening communications in U.S. District Court in Phoenix.

Authorities alleged the 36-year-old Havelock bought an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle and 200 rounds of ammunition from the Scottsdale Gun Club on Jan. 30. The documents say Havelock wanted to kill people at the Feb. 3 Super Bowl in Glendale and was armed when he reached a parking lot near University of Phoenix Stadium where pre-game activities were happening.

However, Havelock had a change of heart. He called his parents, and they persuaded him to turn himself in to Tempe police.

Havelock's father said his son was generally a good person who was being punished for momentarily snapping.

``I know what kind of kid he is. If he was a bad kid, I'd say 'you deserved what you got.' But he's not,'' Frank Havelock said. ``He needs to talk to a counselor. He doesn't need to be incarcerated.''

He told the FBI he wanted to commit the slayings in retaliation for the Tempe City Council rejecting his liquor application for a restaurant he had recently opened.

In a manifesto mailed to various media outlets, Havelock vowed to ``shed the blood of the innocent,'' according to court documents. ``No one destroys my dream,'' he wrote.

Havelock will be sentenced Aug. 25. He faces a maximum sentence of five years in prison.

[JRC]

I still say, that because he turned himself in, he shouldn't have been treated so harshly.

I think this sends bad signals to everyone who NEEDS help, they ain't gunna go looking for it if it leads to federal charges.

JRC

[fatguyaz]

Really, though.... 5 years ain't so bad for all that mess he ALMOST got into. Betcha he won't do it again when he gets out...

[WorkingClassWhore]

I meant to write something nice about Kurt here. And maybe something to try to persuade folks who are sure they know what is right and wrong and how exactly this case should be handled, that perhaps a little introspection might find a time in their lives where they were overwhelmed and as a result had ideas that made them a danger.

Instead this is all about my feelings about Kurt and his actions. Because that's all I can really talk about with any authority.

I won't say that I know Kurt really well, but I did see him a lot at shows and things over the last 5 years or so.
He was a fan of my old band and we liked some of the same kinds of music, so we'd run into each other frequently.
I always like seeing him and chatting with him. He was invariably nice, and always supportive of local music.
The Haunted Castle/Drukenstein's was his dream and he had been working to make it happen for a long time.
He always wanted a bar that could welcome all-age shows as well.

I was glad when it opened and, and enjoyed a few shows there in the time it was opened.

I don't pretend to know what happened in his mind. I haven't talked to him since a month or so before the incident.

I listened to Naked Raygun's Sniper Song a hell of a lot after the news broke. Now I know where snipers come from.

I understand that when a person's dream is dying sometimes they contemplate doing something desperate, dramatic, and giganticly stupid.
I think the difference between sanity and insanity is whether you can let that thought go, or if you hang on to that thought or act on it.

I'm not defending what he did, or what he planned to do. I'm thankful he had a change of heart and did not hurt anyone or himself.
I miss seeing him around. I wish he had gotten some therapy or other help before he took actions that are going to have consequences for him for the rest of his life.

[hunter]

You're letting friendship and kindness cloud your judgment.

The guy will (hopefully) be where he belongs for a long time: prison.

Enjoy your stay, Kurt. Cya in 5 years. (Hopefully not.)

[jomama]

You're letting friendship and kindness cloud your judgment.

The guy will (hopefully) be where he belongs for a long time: prison.

Enjoy your stay, Kurt. Cya in 5 years. (Hopefully not.)

This coming from the guy who thinks electric retard is funny.

[Jacki O.]

You're letting friendship and kindness cloud your judgment.

Actually that's what we need more of in the world: friendship and kindness

less judgment more friendship and kindness!

[weener]

You're letting friendship and kindness cloud your judgment.

I don't think those two things count as things that "cloud" your judgement." I think that immaturity and ignorance are clouding yours.

[hunter]

You're right, that's why when people are in trials in courts they pick all the defendant's friends and stuff, right? What exactly am I being ignorant about? What he did was a crime, even if he didn't kill anyone. Simply the act of planning it and committing terrorist acts are enough to warrant having him put away in jail.

It's not about immaturity or maturity. It's about a total absence of "friendship and kindness", something which Kurt clearly lacked when planning his evil and murderous plot. He was 1 step away from doing the most evil thing humans could do to other humans. And he deserves a reprieve? Kindness?

Fuck that.

PS: Not that I necessarily think Electric Retard is funny, I posted it as a joke, but I mean comics and real life are two completely different things. I'd rather have Kurt draw pictures of killing people rather than proving intent and going out and buying assault rifles and mailing manifestos to people. Guess I live in a weird world, huh?

[raubhimself]

hunter, you are ignoring that Kurt's "absence of friendship and kindness" was:
a ) temporary
b ) a result of having his dreams destroyed

i don't think anyone is saying "oh, well, he shouldn't go to jail or be punished!" rather, people are saying "it's out of character for him, and was obviously a result of this one instance. we would rather see him helped than spend 5 years stewing in resentment in a jail cell."

luckily for you, hunter, i don't think anyone's going to let friendship and kindness get in the way if you do something like this.

p.s. all people deserve kindness. two wrongs don't make one right. etc.

[Jacki O.]

You're right, that's why when people are in trials in courts they pick all the defendant's friends and stuff, right? What exactly am I being ignorant about? What he did was a crime, even if he didn't kill anyone. Simply the act of planning it and committing terrorist acts are enough to warrant having him put away in jail.

It's not about immaturity or maturity. It's about a total absence of "friendship and kindness", something which Kurt clearly lacked when planning his evil and murderous plot. He was 1 step away from doing the most evil thing humans could do to other humans. And he deserves a reprieve? Kindness?

Fuck that.

PS: Not that I necessarily think Electric Retard is funny, I posted it as a joke, but I mean comics and real life are two completely different things. I'd rather have Kurt draw pictures of killing people rather than proving intent and going out and buying assault rifles and mailing manifestos to people. Guess I live in a weird world, huh?

no one is saying what he planned to do and then didn't is OK or that he should be free to go about his life with no consequences for his planned actions - I am just not gonna be a dick about the fact that the guy is going to prison for 5 years for deciding not to kill people.

[mig50]

Simply the act of planning it and committing terrorist acts are enough to warrant having him put away in jail.

RABBLE!