107 replies to this topic

[mothrock]

yeah, well it works for YOU because there is NO sprawl. There is in PHX and in Seattle. A light rail may temporarily lighten traffic, but it is far from a solution. I am tellin ya! up, not out. that's the only reasonable answer and the only way public transit would work. the buses in seattle are very frequent and if I only worked say, 5 miles away, I would definently ride the bus. I don't want everyone on here to think I am some kind of a hard core right winger, that would rather die than see the current system go. I would give up a lot for the greater good of humanity, but my ride is not one of them at this point in time.

[Colin]

I'm not sure that the "no sprawl" thing is actually true. Obviously it's a different kind of sprawl, but the vast majority of the population of Boston metro does not live in Boston. I don't even live in Boston technically, and I live closer than almost all my co-workers. The biggest difference is that the parking (mostly) and traffic (less so) in Boston make driving to work really difficult if you work downtown. It's my experience that people need to be forced out of their cars if they're going to get out of them.

edit: Also, I'm not trying to pick on anyone or give mothrock or mike shit. I'm just presenting the public transportation arguement from someone who uses it and likes it.

[robofish]

The true problem with public transportation is that
you are required to wear pants while using it.

[unluckycharm]

The true problem with public transportation is that
you are required to wear pants while using it.

lol - you haven't been riding the bus much I see.

[robofish]

That's how I got kicked off. Bus nazis.

[mothrock]

I took the bus with my grandparents when they came to visit. Let me tell you, it was a family bonding experience.

I do use the bus sometimes, it comes in handy with the huge hills we have here. I don't use it to go to work though because riding a bus for 28 miles could conceivably take over 2 hours.

[weener]

I think that either we need the light rail system or we should pump up our bus system. Ever tried to take the bus to work up Central avenue in the morning? Before I got a car, I did, and sometimes it's so packed you can't even get on! The same thing getting out of school. I went ot Central high school on Central and Camelback, and trying to take a bus afterwards was very difficult. If we got that light rail system, it's not like no one would use it. There's plenty of need.

I would use it, especially if it went to ASU, because driving there is a pain in the ass. I'd keep my car, you know, for carrying around amps and other heavy things, but I'd use the light rail for most of my day-to-day transportation needs.

[SomethingElse]

mothrock, i'm not picking on you but...
you said in a previous thread that "transit time is 1hr and 15 minutes". then you said your commute could take conceivably 2 hrs. are you talking about the same trip? or are you beginning to exaggerate a little?

we all know buses suck, which is precisely why we should spend the money to improve public transit. maybe we can stop the people who can't afford insurance from driving around without it. that will save us all money.

[mikemfer]

I think the ground in Phoenix is too hard to dig a subway...

OK, then why does everybody in the valley have a swimming pool? And how is there a sewer system? What about the canals?

Then again, why are there no basements here?

[mothrock]

mothrock, i'm not picking on you but...
you said in a previous thread that "transit time is 1hr and 15 minutes". then you said your commute could take conceivably 2 hrs. are you talking about the same trip? or are you beginning to exaggerate a little?

we all know buses suck, which is precisely why we should spend the money to improve public transit. maybe we can stop the people who can't afford insurance from driving around without it. that will save us all money.

somethingelse,
have you ever taken the bus?

it's not an exact transit time. that's what the website said when I looked into it(1 hr 15 minutes). I would have to transfer twice, and we all know how that goes.

in PHX I lived 10 miles from where I worked, bus transit time average :2 hours.

buses never go directly where you want them to, that is the problem and it will always be the plague of mass transportation.

[chadk]

I think the ground in Phoenix is too hard to dig a subway...



OK, then why does everybody in the valley have a swimming pool? And how is there a sewer system? What about the canals?

Then again, why are there no basements here?

yea, i've asked people "why no basmnents? would make sense in the desert, being the coolest place to spend time in the summer right? esier to cool with all that natural insulation" and people reply, the ground is too hard.

but then we have swimming pools everywhere?

where the sense in that?

[aaronburke]

the earth here is a little denser, so
it's more expensive, but it can be done.
but the way the city is set up right now,
it would cost too much to set up a real
underground subway. the way the sewers
are laid out, power is set up, etc, it would
take years and years and cost a ridiculous
amount of cash. basically, if you want to
have a subway, it has to be done in a city's
infancy, or it becomes a beautiful dream...

[mikemfer]

I have been wondering about the basement thing for the entire 11.5 years I've been here. So I finally googled it. I found this.

Basement Homes
From Judy Hedding,
Your Guide to Phoenix, AZ.

Sorting Out the Myths From the Facts

I am often contacted by people considering moving to Arizona about issues that concern them. Some of the most common questions I am asked by those unfamiliar with desert living relate to scorpions (are they everywhere?), the heat (can I keep CDs in the car?), jobs (are there any that pay more than $10 per hour?) and schools (are there any good schools?). There are others, of course, but the one we will focus on today is the question about basements. Why aren't there any homes with basements in Arizona? What do people do with all their stuff when they move to Phoenix if they don't have a basement?

The time has come for us to address the issue of basement homes. I spoke to Scott McDonald of The Wall Company. They have been building basements for homebuilders in the Phoenix area for more than a decade. Having put in thousands of basements in Arizona, Mr. McDonald graciously agreed to answer some of the questions that I know are on many people's minds as they consider buying a home in the Valley.

Phoenix Guide:
I have heard that some of the older homes in the Valley have basements, but until recently not many new construction homes included the feature. How come?

Mr. McDonald:
It's faster to build a home without a basement. Including a basement with a home adds about 30 days to the construction process. Also, if a builder is trying to provide a home with a certain square footage, it costs more to build the home with a basement than it does to add a second story to the home.

Phoenix Guide:
Why do builders in other states, especially in the east, build their homes with basements? Don't they have the same time/cost issues?

Mr. McDonald:
Not really. In colder parts of the country the foundation of a home must be set below the frost line. That means that they have to dig down several feet anyway. The additional few feet to put in a basement is not that significant. But here in Arizona, we only have to dig about 18 inches to put in a foundation, so putting in a basement for a builder represents a significant extra effort than is required.

Phoenix Guide:
Please tell us a little about the extra cost we might pay to build a new home that has a basement.

Mr. McDonald:
If you are building a custom home you are probably spending at least $90 per square foot, and maybe as much as $150 or $200 per square foot for some luxury homes. Including a basement involves the excavation, walls, footings, waterproofing, drain tile, back fill and cleanup, which may only add $15 to $20 per square foot. To make that space livable (finished as opposed to unfinished) may add $30 to $40 per square foot.

Phoenix Guide:
We hear horror stories about "hard digs"' and "rocky soil" and "caliche" causing surprise expenses for people putting in basements. What's the real story?

Mr. McDonald:
The truth is that there is rarely any surprise for a prospective buyer. The builder will do an analysis of the property before the contract is signed. We almost always know if a hard dig (digging into rock) will be required. As a matter of fact, less than 3% of the thousands of basements we've done required a hard dig. As far as the soil is concerned, that is a non-issue. A construction company that knows how to build basements has the proper equipment for our Arizona soils, and trained people operating the equipment.

Phoenix Guide:
What are you seeing in the new home market today in Arizona? Are there more basements being built?

Mr. McDonald:
Definitely! When we began this company in 1992 there was only one builder of tract homes, Hancock Homes, offering a basement option. Each year we've seen another builder jump on the bandwagon. You can now find basement options for homes in the $200,000 and up price range. What many builders are doing is offering a basement option, which replaces the upper level of what would have been a two story home. There's still only one staircase. The space in the basement averages about 1,100 square feet of livable (finished) space. A common floor plan includes a game room, two bedrooms and one bath. An average cost for this option is about $60,000.

Phoenix Guide:
Why do you think people would rather pay extra to have a basement, when they are ending up with roughly the same square footage in the house if they just had a second story?

Mr. McDonald:
There are two reasons. First, privacy. Many tract homes are built on postage stamp sized lots. People really don't want to look out their windows into someone else's backyard. Second, having a basement instead of a second level provides energy savings--the temperature is much more constant, reducing heating and cooling costs.

Phoenix Guide:
What if someone just wants an unfinished basement, for storage purposes or for a workshop?

Mr. McDonald:
Some city ordinances don't allow for that. Right now, Scott Homes in Gilbert is the only builder offering unfinished basements.

Phoenix Guide:
It seems that Arizona builders are now recognizing the demand for basements from consumers. Are you noticing any other trends?

Mr. McDonald:
I believe that even more builders will start to offer a basement option. I also think that we will soon start to see basements becoming available in even more affordable homes geared to middle income families.

[unluckycharm]

I think the ground in Phoenix is too hard to dig a subway...



OK, then why does everybody in the valley have a swimming pool? And how is there a sewer system? What about the canals?

Then again, why are there no basements here?

yea, i've asked people "why no basmnents? would make sense in the desert, being the coolest place to spend time in the summer right? esier to cool with all that natural insulation" and people reply, the ground is too hard.

but then we have swimming pools everywhere?

where the sense in that?

I'm veering off topic here;

In the old days houses *did* have basements here. In the Roosevelt district I know of at least 3.

My theory is that nowadays the houses aren't being built with basements because it adds to the cost of the house (plus most houses are a frame construction--I don't know if that makes a difference). Also, at many subdivisions, pools are an option for a new homebuyer (the pool isn't built until the buyer decides they want a pool).

[unluckycharm]

oh. someone beat me to it.