94 replies to this topic

[donald]

uh oh


mfer VS mfer

In the end there can be only one

[Colin]

The tax code is way too convuluted and complicated to throw up a couple of numbers and be done with it. Our income tax system is designed so that wealthy people pay a larger percentage of their pay, because that still leaves them more money to live on. Personally I'm fine with that structure, but I can see how people might disagree with it on a philosophical level. However, most wealthy people derive most of their income from investment earnings. Capital gains taxes are only assessed when investments are sold at a profit. If you hold onto them, you pay nothing. Numerous other tax loop holes and creative strategies exist that allow significant reductions in the amount of tax you pay. Much of the tax releif that Bush has passed has been in these areas, not in income tax. With that much money at stake, the wealthy people just hire a firm like the one I work for to find the right loopholes. In the end the people with the shrewdness and money to manipulate the system win, and a schmoe like me who makes decent money but prefers to spend it than invest it gets screwed.

As a point of clarification, it doesn't bother me that much that I pay so much of my income to taxes. I have enough to live comfortably on and to periodically go to Phoenix to see shows. What bothers me is that the really wealthy people can and do find ways to pay less than I do so they can buy that extra Hummer.

[mikemfer]

Oh, I didn't say anything about proportions. They just got a lot of money back, a large lump sum. Relative to how much they made or paid, well, that's a different story. But let's say you were a legislator, and you had the opportunity to sign a bill that puts $50,000 right in your pocket, well, wouldn't that be a pretty strong motivator to sign your name or raise your hand and say, "Aye"?

Yes. Of course. And how many idiots voted to put Bush in office because they wanted that $300 check? These are the people we have chosen to represent us.

I'm only playing devil's advocate on the tax cuts. It's easy to skew the statistics to say whatever you want them to. I oppose the graduated tax scale and I oppose the loopholes and writeoffs in the tax laws. I pay more money for people's kids to go to school than they do, for christ's sake. I was smart enough to wear a rubber, so now I have to pay extra to educate their spawn? It should be a flat tax all the way, no exemptions, loopholes, or exceptions. We could eliminate the IRS almost completely.

[mikemfer]

the really wealthy people can and do find ways to pay less than I do

I seriously doubt that. You're saying you pay more taxes than wealthy people? It's not like you can't take advantage of all the same loopholes. But since you make less to begin with that might just buy you a hummer instead of a Hummer. Although Steph might not appreciate that joke.

As far as allowing people to invest without paying taxes, isn't that just a 401k deal? When you withdraw from your 401k it's all taxed as income, not just the gains. If you just wake up one day and put 5 grand into the stock market you can't write that off against your taxable income. Capital gains are taxed alone when the investor has already paid taxes on the money invested.

At any rate, loopholes are all bullshit, from giving people a break for having kids to writing off a yacht as a business expense.

Flat tax. Non-negotiable. Simple and fair.

[ScarS1k]

i didnt read any of this stuff
but i found something that you all might like

"During the Presidential Debate Bush made what may be his most costly error- he exposed that he’s using an earpiece to help him answer debate questions. In the middle of an answer bush said, "now let me finish" as if someone was interrupting him - yet nobody did - he was talking to the person in his earpiece.
Listen to the mp3 yourself- or watch the video at c-span"
rtsp://cspanrm.fplive.net/cspan/project/c04/c04093004_debate1.rm
ffwd to 40 min 30 sec

http://www.indybay.o.../10/1697371.php

[Colin]

I meant to say some wealthy people. Although I do very little with taxation on an individual, I am technically a tax consultant and I've been privy to a lot of ways that people avoid their share. There are books written on how to "cheat" on your taxes without really cheating.

You brought up retirtement plans, and I will make you regret it because that's what I do for a living. Qualified retirement plan benefits and certain IRA's are tax deferred until you receive a distribution. You pay income tax at the time of the distribution, which typically is when you are no longer working and thus are in a lower tax bracket. Part of the big tax act of 2001 increased all the limits for qualified plan benefits. Prior to the act, the maximum amount of compensation upon which a pension benefit is based was $160,000. Now it is $210,000. The maximum annual pension benefit was $130,000 and is now $165,000. I've personally used the new regulations to help implement qualfied retirement plans that allow wealthy people to defer a lot more of their income and effectively get out of a lot of tax. Yes, I feel somewhat guilty for that, but the work was intellectually interesting at least.

Anyway, that's not what I was talking about. You don't pay income tax on any investment that you have not yet sold for a profit. Let's say you bought $1000 worth of Microsoft stock in the 1980's and it's now worth millions. As long as you still own that stock you haven't paid a dime in taxes. When you do sell it, you pay capital gains taxes. That is unless you wait a generation and pass it on to your children. Then they never pay taxes on it because the estate tax has been repealed.

[unluckycharm]

i didnt read any of this stuff
but i found something that you all might like

"During the Presidential Debate Bush made what may be his most costly error- he exposed that he’s using an earpiece to help him answer debate questions. In the middle of an answer bush said, "now let me finish" as if someone was interrupting him - yet nobody did - he was talking to the person in his earpiece.
Listen to the mp3 yourself- or watch the video at c-span"
rtsp://cspanrm.fplive.net/cspan/project/c04/c04093004_debate1.rm
ffwd to 40 min 30 sec

http://www.indybay.o.../10/1697371.php

I remember when he said that & thought it was strange because no one was telling him to stop talking.

[bobby]

i didnt read any of this stuff
but i found something that you all might like

"During the Presidential Debate Bush made what may be his most costly error- he exposed that he’s using an earpiece to help him answer debate questions. In the middle of an answer bush said, "now let me finish" as if someone was interrupting him - yet nobody did - he was talking to the person in his earpiece.
Listen to the mp3 yourself- or watch the video at c-span"
rtsp://cspanrm.fplive.net/cspan/project/c04/c04093004_debate1.rm
ffwd to 40 min 30 sec

http://www.indybay.o.../10/1697371.php

I remember when he said that & thought it was strange because no one was telling him to stop talking.

He says that in interviews all of the time. Maybe it's just a knee jerk reaction. Did anybody see the ear piece? They can probably make them pretty small now.

[mothrock]

what if he started picking up other frequencies?

like in that movie "roxanne"?

that would be awesome!!!

[mikemfer]

I meant to say some wealthy people. Although I do very little with taxation on an individual, I am technically a tax consultant and I've been privy to a lot of ways that people avoid their share. There are books written on how to "cheat" on your taxes without really cheating.

You brought up retirtement plans, and I will make you regret it because that's what I do for a living. Qualified retirement plan benefits and certain IRA's are tax deferred until you receive a distribution. You pay income tax at the time of the distribution, which typically is when you are no longer working and thus are in a lower tax bracket. Part of the big tax act of 2001 increased all the limits for qualified plan benefits. Prior to the act, the maximum amount of compensation upon which a pension benefit is based was $160,000. Now it is $210,000. The maximum annual pension benefit was $130,000 and is now $165,000. I've personally used the new regulations to help implement qualfied retirement plans that allow wealthy people to defer a lot more of their income and effectively get out of a lot of tax. Yes, I feel somewhat guilty for that, but the work was intellectually interesting at least.

Anyway, that's not what I was talking about. You don't pay income tax on any investment that you have not yet sold for a profit. Let's say you bought $1000 worth of Microsoft stock in the 1980's and it's now worth millions. As long as you still own that stock you haven't paid a dime in taxes. When you do sell it, you pay capital gains taxes. That is unless you wait a generation and pass it on to your children. Then they never pay taxes on it because the estate tax has been repealed.

Thanks Colin, I actually learned a lot reading that, and I'm not even being sarcastic.

I'm pretty fucking glad the estate tax has been repealed. And I'll bet you johnmfer is too.

By the way, a 15% flat tax would benefit the rich more than the poor. Colin, how many of these people you work with manage to get under a 15% effective tax rate?

And that earpiece thing is a fucking trip. What an idiot.

[bobby]

what if he started picking up other frequencies?

like in that movie "roxanne"?

that would be awesome!!!

I'm afraid of Wooorrms, Roxanne.

[thebiggameover]

found the transcript of it on c-span...

LEHRER: New question. Senator Kerry, two minutes. You just -- you've repeatedly accused President Bush -- not here tonight, but elsewhere before -- of not telling the truth about Iraq, essentially of lying to the American people about Iraq. Give us some examples of what you consider to be his not telling the truth.

KERRY: Well, I've never, ever used the harshest word, as you did just then. And I try not to. I've been -- but I'll nevertheless tell you that I think he has not been candid with the American people. And I'll tell you exactly how.

First of all, we all know that in his state of the union message, he told Congress about nuclear materials that didn't exist.

We know that he promised America that he was going to build this coalition. I just described the coalition. It is not the kind of coalition we were described when we were talking about voting for this.

The president said he would exhaust the remedies of the United Nations and go through that full process. He didn't. He cut if off, sort of arbitrarily.

And we know that there were further diplomatic efforts under way. They just decided the time for diplomacy is over and rushed to war without planning for what happens afterwards.

Now, he misled the American people in his speech when he said we will plan carefully. They obviously didn't. He misled the American people when he said we'd go to war as a last resort. We did not go as a last resort. And most Americans know the difference.

Now, this has cost us deeply in the world. I believe that it is important to tell the truth to the American people. I've worked with those leaders the president talks about, I've worked with them for 20 years, for longer than this president. And I know what many of them say today, and I know how to bring them back to the table.

And I believe that a fresh start, new credibility, a president who can understand what we have to do to reach out to the Muslim world to make it clear that this is not, you know -- Osama bin Laden uses the invasion of Iraq in order to go out to people and say that America has declared war on Islam.

We need to be smarter about now we wage a war on terror. We need to deny them the recruits. We need to deny them the safe havens. We need to rebuild our alliances.

I believe that Ronald Reagan, John Kennedy, and the others did that more effectively, and I'm going to try to follow in their footsteps.

LEHRER: Ninety seconds, Mr. President.

BUSH: My opponent just said something amazing. He said Osama bin Laden uses the invasion of Iraq as an excuse to spread hatred for America. Osama bin Laden isn't going to determine how we defend ourselves.

Osama bin Laden doesn't get to decide. The American people decide.

I decided the right action was in Iraq. My opponent calls it a mistake. It wasn't a mistake.

He said I misled on Iraq. I don't think he was misleading when he called Iraq a grave threat in the fall of 2002.

I don't think he was misleading when he said that it was right to disarm Iraq in the spring of 2003.

I don't think he misled you when he said that, you know, anyone who doubted whether the world was better off without Saddam Hussein in power didn't have the judgment to be president. I don't think he was misleading.

I think what is misleading is to say you can lead and succeed in Iraq if you keep changing your positions on this war. And he has. As the politics change, his positions change. And that's not how a commander in chief acts.

Let me finish.

The intelligence I looked at was the same intelligence my opponent looked at, the very same intelligence. And when I stood up there and spoke to the Congress, I was speaking off the same intelligence he looked at to make his decisions to support the authorization of force.